Waterboarding: We Won’t Let This One Go
By SusanUnPC on November 8, 2007 at 1:35 PM in Torture
EVENING UPDATE: Thanks to PBS Newshour, we get a clip of SR. CPO. MALCOLM NANCE (Ret.), the Navy SEAL who taught POW interrogation methods, testifying today before a House committee. AND PBS Newshour interviews Malcolm Nance! WTG, PBS! (That link takes you to both the video/audio and the full transcript.) AND you can ask Malcolm Nance questions at the PBS Newshour site.
AFTERNOON UPDATE: My senator, Patty Murray, has issued a powerful statement that she will not vote for Mukasey’s confirmation. It is a must-read in full (and I posted it in the comments here), but a couple key themes are “Now, more than ever, the Attorney General needs to be the people’s lawyer, not the President’s lawyer. The Attorney General should be independent enough to stand up for the American people and say “No” to the President. And I am concerned that Judge Mukasey’s testimony shows that he is unwilling to be that voice.” and “Judge Mukasey’s refusal to recognize waterboarding as an act of torture and to say outright that it is illegal is of particular concern. …” (HEY, KEITH: GET SEN. MURRAY ON COUNTDOWN!)
MEMO TO LARRY: Have you, or other signers, received any kind of response from the Senate Judiciary Committee to your superb letter asking for a hold on Mukasey’s confirmation as attorney general? If so, what did they say to you?
NAVY SEAL INSTRUCTOR ON WATERBOARDING: “Former Navy Interrogator Tells Congress Waterboarding Technique Should Be Banned“: In case you missed the story I posted yesterday about Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a former Navy instructor of prisoner of war and terrorist hostage survival programs, his testimony is now complete, and detailed in this new wire story.
LEAHY KEEPS ON KEEPING ON: “November 15 marks the one year anniversary of Sen. Pat Leahy’s first letter to the White House requesting documents on U.S. torture policy. A year later, Leahy is still sending letters and the White House is still stonewalling.” (TPM)
JOE GALLOWAY ON WATERBOARDING: “Memo to Media: I Witnessed ‘Waterboarding’ — And, Yes, It is Torture ”
Forgive the interruption: MSNBC is showing us the vastly more important live hearing for O. J. Simpson in Las Vegas. I’m sure that’s far more valuable than showing us the video of Navy SEAL instructor Malcolm Nance before the House today. (I’d try CNN, but it’s probably the same drivel.)
Well George Bush says it’s not torture, so it’s not torture.
I propose waterboarding george to find out how bad he lied about Iraq.
interrogator: Well Mr. Bush, was it always the plan to invade Iraq from the very beginning?
Bush: Gurrgle..gurrgle. gasp..help..oh gawd….spitting sounds..oh gawd!
I: would that be a yes?
Bush: oh gawd help me!! gurgle.. YES..
I: Did you really think Saddam had WMD’s? Or was that just the cover story?
Bush: Oh please God! don’t do that again..please..
I: It was only a 10 second shot George..We’ve got all day here.
Bush: Why are you torturing me? oh No..gurgle.gasp..gurgle..spitting coughing..
I: This isn’t torture George..it’s just a little inTERRORgation technique we call waterboarding..
Bush: I’ll tell you anything you want to hear..just don’t..oh god!! gurgle..gurrgle..gasp..
I: Wish it was that easy George..I wish it was that easy..
I bet many would like to suggest that Mukasey or Bush or others should undergo waterboarding to see what it’s like. The odds are that these suggestions will be dismissed as ridiculous.
Why?
It didn’t seem ridiculous to Daniel Levin, in 2004 when he was acting assistant AG.
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/DOJ/story?id=3814076&page=1
“After the experience, Levin told White House officials that even though he knew he wouldn’t die, he found the experience terrifying and thought that it clearly simulated drowning.”
So if there’s a paradox that Mukasey says he can’t answer until briefed, and he can’t be briefed until confirmed, and he has trouble being confirmed if he won’t answer; the most direct way out of the paradox is to simply take a test drive on a waterboard.
It’s completely legitimate to suggest this. Levin, for example, like Mukasey is also in the legal profession.
“Forgive the interruption: MSNBC is showing us the vastly more important live hearing for O. J. Simpson in Las Vegas. I’m sure that’s far more valuable than showing us the video of Navy SEAL instructor Malcolm Nance before the House today. (I’d try CNN, but it’s probably the same drivel.)
Susan, god damn them, yes it is the same on every cable station. Glad they have something to occupy their time, the craven bastards. I’ll be quiet now.
Hope you’re recovering quickly and people are giving you candy and books. Well, at least books.
Hate to be the skunk at the picnic here, but the news directors know when people change channels. And they change when the “serious” stuff, and especially the “foreign” stuff, comes on.
That’s why O.J., that’s why Britney, that’s why all the meaningless drivel. Blame the right people, the ones holding the remotes.
In the absence of a BBC*-styled press, we have a vehicle to deliver eyes to advertisers, and those advertisers, sadly, determine the profitability of the news outlets.
* Not that an outlet funded by this government would be even worth having on a cable system, let alone actually watching.
You’re correct, of course. I just wish there were a station for people like me who CHANGE or TURN OFF channels with the O.J./Britney drivel comes on. Increasingly, for example, I stop watching Keith when he gets to the Britney segment. I just want English Al Jazeera, dammit. Thank god that now BBC America airs two news programs, both its World News and its World News America, both of which I tape daily.
Last year I spent two weeks visiting my son in Korea and watched a bit of the English language TV channels that he got. BBC World Service, Australian Broadcasting, and CNN International. All three were excellent. CNN International is completely different from the crap they feed us here at home. It’s a serious news channel, completely competitive with the other stations with no celebrity fluff or missing blondes. It’s clear that whoever is controlling the media outlets in this country wants to keep us distracted and amused with nonessentials.
Which brings to mind this blast from the past. During my studies of modern German history I learned that the Nazi government encouraged the entertainment industry to turn out a few anti-Semitic films, certainly, but things like that get old and heavy-handed. What they really concentrated on was fluffy comedies and romances that kept people distracted. Interesting, huh?
It’s truly disgusting. I think MSNBC carried the entire hearing for Simpson, sigh. I’m so sorry I missed Malcolm Nance’s testimony, and I would love to at least hear some excerpts! I wonder if anyone has put it up at YouTube or elsewhere … anyone see any video anywhere?
Think progress
‘Waterboarding is torture and should be banned,’
Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a former Navy instructor of prisoner of war and terrorist hostage survival programs, told a House Judiciary subcommittee today. Nance described the experience as a “slow motion suffocation” that provides enough time for
the subject to consider what’s happening: “water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel(ing) your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs.” “The victim is drowning,” Nance said. Lt. Col. Stuart Coach was supposed to testify but was prevented from doing so by the Pentagon. 2:50 pm | Comment (87)
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/08/waterboarding-is-torture-and-should-be-banned/
Looking for his testimony everywhere cannot find it.
Buchanan on waterboarding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt_MN2eBWl8
a C-span caller encouraging David Rivkin to try
water-boarding
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/11/08/c-span-caller-asks-arrogant-right-wing-republican-apologist-to-try-water
boarding/
It looks like Malcolm Nance was restricted from testifying. This it Think Progress
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/08/waterboarding-is
-torture-and-should-be-banned/
‘Waterboarding is torture and should be banned,’
Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a former Navy instructor of prisoner of war and terrorist hostage survival programs, told a House Judiciary subcommittee today. Nance described the experience as a “slow motion suffocation” that provides enough time for the subject to consider what’s happening: “water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel(ing) your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs.” “The victim is drowning,” Nance said. Lt. Col. Stuart Coach was supposed to testify but was prevented from doing so by the Pentagon. 2:50 pm | Comment (87)
On “retroactive immunity” this guy is another true patriot
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/11/08/countdown-att-whistleblower-speaks-out-against-immunity-for-telcoms/
Let’s stop calling it “simulated” drowning. It isn’t simulated. It is real drowning under controlled conditions. It often results in loss of consciousness, and sometimes results in death. It is not make-believe, it is real.
Shirin, the documentary filmmaker Stephen Grey, who did the Frontline Documentary recently shown on PBS about extraordinary rendition, recently apologized on Amy Goodman’s Democracy Now, on behalf of himself and other journalists for calling it “simulated drowning.” He said that it is, in fact, “controlled drowning.”
When does the Nance testimony air? It wasn’t on this morning and isn’t listed on the Cspan schedule.
Dunno, Cee. I’d sure like to see it too. I don’t see it listed at C-Span, but then I find their site so confusing in terms of tracking available videos.
Let’s see. I need to find which committee heard his testimony, and then call them. It’s probably too late to call today. I will try to remember to do that tomorrow a.m. early.
Perhaps Nance made some of the same points in this debate on this evening’s NewsHour with Jim Lehrer:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july-dec07/waterboarding_11-08.html
__________
I’m not sure whether it’s necessary to click “link” before and after a link address (I do) or whether the link is enabled automatically.
MY SENATOR CAME THROUGH — I called her office a couple days ago, and could tell they were swamped with phone calls. But I always had great confidence that she’d do the right thing. I’m just posting her entire statement — sorry for the length, but I think it’s quite good:
Murray to Oppose Mukasey Nomination to Head Justice Department
For Immediate Release:
Wednesday, November 7, 2007
(WASHINGTON, D.C.) – U.S. Senator Patty Murray today released a statement indicating that she will oppose the nomination of Judge Michael Mukasey to head the Department of Justice as Attorney General. The full Senate is expected to vote on Mukasey’s nomination tomorrow.
“I have met with Judge Michael Mukasey and closely followed his nomination.
“I had hoped to support his confirmation and to begin the rebuilding process at the Department of Justice. Judge Mukasey’s experience both as a judge and an Assistant U.S. Attorney were hopeful signs of his independence and of a willingness to put the law and the Constitution ahead of politics and even his president. But his testimony proved otherwise.
“Unfortunately, at a time when Americans need an Attorney General who will restore their faith in the independence of the Department of Justice, I am disappointed to find that Judge Mukasey is not that nominee.
“From his responses, I do not believe that Judge Mukasey will stand up to the President when he has crossed the boundaries of his authority. Rather, his responses show that he is too willing to bend the law to conform to the President’s actions, and for that reason, I will vote against his confirmation.
“America is a nation of laws. We believe that no person is above the law, not even the President.
“This Administration’s determined effort to centralize power within the Executive Branch at the expense of Congress and the courts is deeply troubling. This Administration has far exceeded the power authorized in the Constitution to convene military tribunals, conduct warrantless wiretapping, and overturn more than one hundred years of our understanding on the meaning of torture.
“We all recognize the need to keep our nation safe. The most important job of our government is to ensure the safety of the American people. We must take the necessary actions to root out and prosecute those who would do us harm. But rather than work with Congress, the President has gone around the law to unilaterally expand his power.
“Now, more than ever, the Attorney General needs to be the people’s lawyer, not the President’s lawyer. The Attorney General should be independent enough to stand up for the American people and say “No” to the President. And I am concerned that Judge Mukasey’s testimony shows that he is unwilling to be that voice.
“Judge Mukasey’s refusal to recognize waterboarding as an act of torture and to say outright that it is illegal is of particular concern. For over one hundred years, the laws and traditions of our nation have condemned the practice of waterboarding. Up until this Administration, our nation has been certain and consistent on this point. And as four retired Judge Advocates General recently stated, “Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal.”
“Judge Mukasey has failed to be clear on this point. My fear is that his failure to simply answer the question is an indication of a willingness to mold laws to the desire of the President, rather than to ensure the President abides by the law.
“As I stated before voting against Judge Mukasey’s predecessor, Alberto Gonzales, the Attorney General must be honest and independent, and must actively enforce the laws and ensure the public’s confidence in the legal system. Alberto Gonzales’ disastrous tenure at the Department of Justice confirms what can happen when the Attorney General is not committed to maintaining independence from the White House.
“America needs an Attorney General whose independence is without question. I am concerned that Judge Mukasey’s allegiance will lay with the President as opposed to the people, and that is why I will oppose his nomination today.”
We should encourage folks to give Senator Murray a phone call or send and e-mail and thank her for being a true patriot.
http://murray.senate.gov/
Suasan I believe you left me a message awhile back and am unable to find it. Did you send me your e-mail?
Christy Hardin Smith over at FDL is encouraging folks to call, e-mail, visit your reps and encourage them to vote no on “retroactive immunity” for telecoms
http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/11/08/brainstorming/
I was pounded over at FDL for bringing up how very few in the so-called “progressive” blogosphere write about anything about the Israeli Palestinian conflict and how are support of Israel no matter what they do is one of the reasons (most of the middle east countries endlessly repeat) they hate us (or our policies). It’s been two weeks since I was hammered and still not one of the bloggers has written about it.
I swear the progressive blogosphere is self monitoring themselves just as the MSM does on this issue. Mearsheimer and Walt, or Norman Finkelstein where are you? This would be a present time and very fascinating research project
Susan I wonder which Republican Senators have questions about the Mukasey nomination? If ever the Republicans were going to start stepping away from the Bush administraion… times awastin.
Sigh. They won’t. When even Lindsey Graham, who knows better, falls in line, there’s no hope. (But he’s been scared shitless by the far-right in his state, who’ve threatened to run him out of office.) Maybe Hagel will. He certainly should! Maybe McCain although, since he’s running for president, probably won’t think he can dare. I can’t think of any other possibilities. All of the news reports say that Mukasey’s confirmation is an absolute certainty, and I think they’re right.
You just never know..I still encourage folks to call, worth the try. What has McCain come out and said about this?
He’s said that waterboarding is torture, period. But let’s see how he votes on Mukasey. I predict he’ll fall in line. When is that vote anyway, Kathleen?
Not sure but will certainly look. Off to Ohio University womens volleyball.
Hope you feel better Susan.
Have been thinking about how the Bush administration have been busy WIRING THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE via wiretapping, data mining and surveillance of the Internet.
later.
Is this the Malcolm Nance hearing. I don’t have sound on this computer.
I think this might be it. I thought that clip at Think Progress said he was unable to testify
http://judiciary.house.gov/oversight.aspx?ID=394
Playing ‘The Price Is Right’ with AG
Well, here we are folks. A vote is expected within the hour (as of 930PM EST 11/08/07). What really are our choices?
Door #1 Mukasey
Door #2 Continuation with acting AG Keisler
Door #2-1/2 Seeing if Bush really will, or will not nominate anyone else
Some Choice
You’re right. There is no good choice. And, in some respects, Mukasey seems like a fine candidate but, with that White House, there isn’t a prayer he’ll be able to improve the Justice Dept. much, if at all. Nothing good will happen to that department until ‘09, well if we elect a Democrat … those bellicose GOP candidates will just continue the decimation. There’s Mitt Romney who wants TWO Guantanamos… and on and on. Sick bunch.
Yes in some respects, Mukasey could be better than Keisler. Although either could actually be dismissed. Maybe what we’re left with is shooting craps with one of the dice loaded, vs both of them.
At least he said he would enforce an anti waterboard law if Congress passed one; isn’t that special?
He also said the constitution does not prevent POTUS from wiretapping without a court order; and that intel collection by POTUS can be regulated but not ‘pre-empted’ by Congress, whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean.
On the other hand, there’s a long shot he could turn out something like Suter did on the Supreme Court. His stubborness against being pinned down does remind me of Suter. Maybe Suter ‘light’. Who knows?
Susan, I doubt that waterboarding will stay “legal” for much longer. I think enough has been done, but I may be wrong. How many other nasties are going to remain due to lack of classification or a beaurocratic loophole?
It just made me think. Here in Australia Dr Phil episodes are so out-of-date that I think he has just started featuring the last OJ trial. I don’t think society learnt from the last trial. And that was the blacks hate the whites and vice versa. I am not talking about a visible hatred, but when push comes to shove and allegences are called, the blacks stick together as do the whites. We lived in times of extreme prejudice. We live in times of extreme prejudice.
I find Dr Phil an interesting character. He has so much to offer, has so much talent, but is so manifestly destructive and zealous. You may not see a connection, but I recall a show over the last few weeks talking about the latest school shooting. Was it 22 or 26 for the year. My God, 26 seperate school shootings in a year. What the f*ck is going on in your town? Dr Phil, the true zealot that he is, was issuing blame by the bucket load and doing nothing about the root cause.
And suddenly the penny dropped; the truth dawned. And let me say this I have no doubt that Michael Moore’s crusade against gun ownership is vital. The notion that gun owners who are issued weapons for personal protection are not going to use them for other purposes is ridiculous. Also, at what point the use of a gun justified in self protection - when someone calls you a rude name?
But removing the weapons is a tiny part of the problem (a significant part of the solution, but a tiny part of the problem). So here is the connection between back door torture, gun ownership and all those school shootings. Successive communities, governments and Dr Phil’s have been good at describing the problem, great at issuing oppressive measures, but utterly hopeless at even attempting to define long term solutions to what we can only commonly call the intent to hate.
Society is a large rug and successive governments, aided by characters like Dr Phil have specialised in sweeping the dirt under the rug in the hope it will go away. And guys like me, little ol’ me, keep pulling up that rug exposing the dirt and saying that’s your problem. We don’t come visiting too often and are often killed for telling. But the messenger is easily disposed of and human beings are all about taking easy options.
There is a tendency to sell these days. With all the focus on weapons of mass destruction, society has become blind to the reality of the death industry. Ghengis Khan slaughtered 800,000 people in the region we call Iran today in his attempt to ethnic cleanse. He had no bombs, guns, just horsemen with sabres. In recent times over 1 Million were killed in Rwanda (while the US slept) and not by weapons of mass destruction. In fact with little more than Ghengis Khan had at his disposal. You do not need weapons of mass destruction to make carnage.
The issue has always been intent. That is the issue being presented around this torture debate - intent. While the intent remains, torture will find its intended place.
[…] Waterboarding: We Won’t Let This One Go Filed under: Michael Mukasey, Patty Murray, Torture, Waterboarding — jr @ 11:25 pm Waterboarding: We Won’t Let This One Go […]
On C-Span 2; Mukasey confirmed 53-40
All Dems voted no except:
Bayh, Feinstein, Carper, Landrieu, Nelson, Schumer
7 Senators did not vote:
Biden (D), Dodd (D), Clinton (D), Obama (D), Alexander (R), Cornyn (R), McCain (R)
Good Night
[…] In the shadow of Mukasey’s approval vote, the patriots at No Quarter are continuing the fight on waterboarding. In their own words, We Won’t Let This One Go. […]
THIS AD was in my Google Mail:
Yes, it’s true. No more 11 hour trips to Cuba via Canada. Now you can get a direct flight on the taxpayer’s dime! Just yelling something like “Down with the Infidel!” in a local airport should do the trick.
(Consult your attorney before purchase)
Text reads:
“Guantanamo Bay
come for the beaches…
stay for the waterboarding.”
http://tshirtinsurgency.com/guantanamo-bay-t-shirt?gclid=CNDv38-N0Y8CFScXagod8RMB9Q
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