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More on Charlie Wilson’s War

COMMENT BY LARRY JOHNSON.  I have received some back channel emails from several friends–retired military and intelligence officers–who knew Charlie Wilson or worked on the Afghan Task Force in some form or fashion.  Folks have different views and thoughts.  Here’s a great piece from a dear friend who served with U.S. special operations forces and had a distinguished military career. This is his take.

Larry,  OK, I’ve seen the film and the History Channel documentary, and I’ve read the Criles book, and as mentioned earlier I was involved in part of this.

As far as the movie goes, I liked it very much.   It’s very well done and nicely captured the feeling of that period in time and the politics of the situation.   I think there are some time compressions, and some things were deleted, but it’s still worthwhile.  I particularly liked Tom Hanks as Charlie Wilson, except he made him smarter, funnier and more sympathetic than he actually was.  

Now to the grisly details.   After FBNC I finagled a job on the Army Staff.   I’d been operating off the books for almost five years and with a new wife and two children, I needed to get back into the mainstream of the Army.   Regreening it was called, and for those who’d served at FBNC for any length of time, at that time it was mandatory if you ever wanted to be promoted again.   And I had decided I did.   I was assigned to Strategy, Plans and Policy Division (or Directorate) as the Africa guy, but at that time I had absolutely nothing to do with Afghanistan, Pakistan or anything else in Central Asia.   I’d been there about four or five months when the XO came in my office and dropped the file on my desk.   Until I opened it I had no idea anything of that nature was going on.   The file dealt primarily with the STINGER xfers.   Until I saw the documentary I had no knowledge of the arms buys from Egypt or how we’d been supporting the Muj to that point.

Within a week, ten days at most, the first major problem appeared.  We had already sold STINGER Basic to the Pakistanis and they were having trouble with it.  Soviet acft were crossing into Pakistani airspace in pursuit of the Muj and the Paks couldn’t hit them.   Since STINGER was in the process of being fielded in our Army, and had never been tried in combat before the Paks started firing at Soviet border crossers, the credibility of the whole program was at stake and the Army had to respond to the Pak’s concerns.

A friend of mine named Jerry Fry, also on the Army Staff, was the Pakistan desk officer.   Jerry had been Chief of the Army Section in the ODRP (the MILGROUP).   He had some of the languages, knew the organization and personalities of the Pakistani Army, and because of his assignment on the ARSTAFF was the logical guy to pull together the response.  He quickly put together what amounted to a STINGER MTT and flew to Pakistan to see what was wrong.   He took with him several drones, a REDEYE, one or more STINGERs and a trained gunner.   A demo was arranged at their air defense school (if memory serves it was on the coast~on the Arabian Sea) and in the hands of a competent operator it was quickly shown that there was nothing wrong with the missile.   Subsequent investigation showed the problem was lack of training and maintenance, and an organizational problem in that the missiles (MANPADS-Man Portable Air Defense Systems) had been taken away from the Chief of Air Defense and given to the frontline corps commanders.  Without a proponent the missiles quickly deteriorated and the gunners lost proficiency.   The Pakistanis had just absorbed this lesson when the first shootdown in Afghanistan occurred.   Engineer Captain somebody (I remembered his name as Abdullah, but in the documentary your friend Milt Bearden says his name was Jaffer or Gaffer.  I’d go with Bearden.   I wasn’t in theater at the time and didn’t hear about it for at least two days after it happened).  At any rate he crept out into the airfield at Jalalabad (as I recall) and torched at least two Hinds.   The movie shows three.   I’m fine with that too.   Any whole number is fine with me, but that shootdown demonstrated to our Congressional critics the system worked and had utility in that tactical environment, and I think it showed the Muj that we had given them a good weapons system.  It also embarrassed the Pakistanis in that the Afghans could shoot down a Soviet plane, but they couldn’t.

Inspite of the positive jolt the first shootdowns gave all of us, there were still problems.   The Muj hadn’t really mastered the system yet, and were very much inclined to fire out of range.   In the early days if they could see it they’d shoot at it.  The missile only had a slant range of 5-8 miles, and could be tricked by a snowbank or a brushfire. The solution to the first problem was provided by MG Donald Infante, then the boss at our Air Defense Center and School.   Within a week or two he and his staff developed a simple template affair to be worn around the neck on a lanyard.   It looked like a short ruler and had three or four different sized holes in it. When held at arms length each hole corresponded to one of the Soviet frontline acft.   If the gunner could identify the type of acft he was looking at all he had to do was hold the template up to the sky and when the wings or the rotor blades touched both sides of the MiG-21 hole or the Hind hole it was in range.

The solution to the other problem(s) involved better training for the trainers.   The facility designed to train MANPADS gunners was called a Moving Target Simulator, an instrumented dome-like affair that simulated various engagement scenarios likely to be faced by a gunner in a NATO environment.   They cost about $1M apiece in 1985 dollars, and at the time I believe there were only three in the World, one in Germany, one somewhere in PACOM(?), and the one at Fort Bliss.   Infante made the one at Bliss available to us to train the trainers.   By day it was used by US students, but at night it was used by 5th Group and Agency guys to perfect their skills so they could train the Afghans.

I had to laugh when they introduced the Vickers character as their weapons expert.   I frankly didn’t know there was an Afghan Working Group at Langley.   I assumed somebody was managing it, but until I saw the documentary and read the Criles book I had no idea who.   The way it really worked, we didn’t hear a squeak from them until they got in a jam and or didn’t know what they were doing.   The Oerlikon business was a prime example.   They didn’t know an Oerlikon from a Krupp coffee maker.  All they knew about Oerlikons was what they read in the manufacturer’s manual, and it was our guys who had to try and convince them, and Wilson, that the Oerlikon was not the answer to their problem.   The same kind of problems occurred with the STINGERs.   Once they got over there someone figured out they knew how to fire them but didn’t know how to use them.   Over a long weekend I sat down and wrote tactical manuals for the employment of STINGER in Afghanistan and Angola.   I’d been to Angola during the war for independence and knew the area where they would be used rather well, but I’d never been to Afghanistan and had to rely on two officers who had, the Army Library, and the two relevant field manuals to come up with an abbreviated field manual for use in the high altitude, cross-compartmented terrain typical of that environment.   The combination of improved training, Infante’s target acquisition template, and the tactical manuals seemed to work.   Planes started falling out of the sky.

The other guy who should have received credit in the documentary but didn’t was MG Charles W. Brown.   Charlie Brown.   For some reason our whole branch got transferred from DCSOPS to DCSLOG, and when it did Charlie became our boss.  In the Criles book he makes the point that Wilson couldn’t have gotten away with what he did without Tip O’Neill’s tacit consent.   Charlie was my Tip O’Neill.   The Vice Chief of Staff of the Army at the time was Max Thurman.   One of the Vice’s primary responsibilities, over and beyond running the staff, is to husband the Army’s resources and I was in the process of stealing a large number of his STINGERS for something he most emphatically did not approve of.   Charlie was a barely reformed Nebraska cowboy.   As he once laughingly explained, he was the only man he’d ever met who’d gone to college on a polo scholarship. Almost thirty years of service hadn’t taken the ranch twang out of his voice, but he did not look healthy even 21 years ago.   He had a smoker’s cough (that later developed into cancer) and a perpetual prison pallor brought on by too many days and nights in the Pentagon.   He’d made a career out of letting people underestimate him,  but he was wonderfully personable and insightful, a truly honorable man, and extraordinarily shrewd and capable.   Also, one of the most skillful bureaucratic infighters I’ve ever known.   Thurman wasn’t too hard on lieutenant colonels and majors, but he was death on colonels and general officers, and in addition to carrying our mail on the Hill, I suspect Charlie took most of the tongue-lashings and abuse meant for me.   I owe him a great deal, for this and many other things, and will always think of him with profound respect and gratitude.   As an afterthought, it was Charlie Brown who first called my attention to the Criles book.

My part in all this was to provide the missiles, train and coordinate training for the trainers, develop the tactical manuals for the Muj and UNITA, and address problems, political and military, that impacted on the use of the weapons in-country.   One part of that involved symplifying the Program of Instruction for STINGER gunners.   Early on I discovered about a third of the POI was diagnostics and maintenance.   I suspected neither the Muj or UNITA would waste much time on that so threw it out and rewrote the whole thing to emphasize target identification, acquisition and training.   One of the 5th Group NCOs who actually trained the Muj later told me they took care of their missiles like they were camels.   If the weapon whistled or gurgled, or lit up when they twisted this or that nob they knew the missile was feeling well and would engage.   If it didn’t the missile was sick and needed attention from the Americans.   Usually just a battery swap, but everyone likes to feel useful.

Since there were no moving target simulators where the training was being done, at one point the UNITA trainees were using the resupply acft to practice target acquisition.   I don’t imagine the pilots would have been particularly pleased if someone had told them, but nobody got shot down who wasn’t supposed to so I guess it worked out.

When I left the program the Muj and UNITA between them had shot down 77 Soviet/Cuban acft.   The piece de resistance was an IL-76 shot down in Angola with a full load of Cubans aboard.    I’ve forgotten the body count but it was most gratifying.

Other odds and ends:

1.  The documentary makes the point that the Army was opposed to turning over STINGER to UNITA and the Muj.   This is true.

~   We were just fielding STINGER and hadn’t yet fully equipped the Regular Army with the new MANPADS.   Some frontline units committed to NATO were still using REDEYE, a first generation system of considerably less capability.

~   We’d invested millions in the technology and were probably a full generation ahead of the Soviets at that point.   There was a fear the missile would fall into Soviet hands and they would reverse engineer it, to our detriment.   And something like that did in fact happen.

~   We understood the potential benefits of introducing STINGER into Afghanistan as well as anyone, but by this time we’d also heard about Charlie Wilson.   Legislative Liaison had told us about his alleged drug use, his drinking, his hit and run, and his lack of discretion, and we didn’t want a program we’d spent millions on held hostage by someone we didn’t trust.

~  There was also the fear some of these missiles would subsequently be used against us or our partners in Western Europe.

~   By the same token we were also aware that this represented, to a degree, payback for Vietnam.   A mildly funny story related to that point.  During the period of the STINGERs greatest success our DATT in Moscow was invited to the Frunze Military Academy to make a presentation to the students and faculty.   During the Q and A the bright young Popovs got on him about  US assistance to Afghanistan and Angola.   He listened for awhile then said, “I’ll make a deal with you.   We’ll provide exactly as much assistance to the Mujahadin as you did to the North Vietnamese.    How will that be?”   That pretty much ended the Afghan discussion, but it’s fair and accurate to say the Army and the program manager were conflicted over the xfer of these missiles to guerrillas.

2.   In the documentary Charlie Wilson, the real one, says the Chief of Staff of the Army came to see him to explain why we shouldn’t give STINGER to anyone outside NATO.    Maybe, but I doubt it.   The Chief was John Wickham, and he was the last senior officer to find out about it.   When I briefed Vuono, then the DCSOPS, he asked me if the Chief had been briefed and I responded, “Everybody but him.”  If Wickham had gone up the Hill I would have had to do a briefing book and I was never asked to do that.    I don’t think the real Wilson would know the Chief of Staff if he tripped over him.   I suspect the man he saw was Charlie Brown; I know he was up there to see Wilson on one or more occasions.  At least once I was with him.

3.   Clarence (Doc) Long was exactly as depicted in the film and documentary.

He represented a working class district in Baltimore~Bethlehem Steel and the shipyards were in his district~and he was virtually impregnable.   Primarily because he had the largest admin support staff in Congress.   Twenty or thirty people working on nothing but constituent complaints.   Long’s district got the best service he could provide and they loved him for it, but he was not the brightest light in Baltimore Harbor and held his chairmanship only by reason of seniority.   In 1980 I heard him make the exact same speech he made in the film~ several times.   They captured it perfectly.

4.   Mike Vickers:  Inspite of my snide comment about his bona fides as a ”weapons expert” I suspect he was a good guy.   I’ve looked at his picture and I don’t recognize him, but that doesn’t mean anything.   I imagine he spent most of his time at Langley beavering away on the project.  Like everyone else, trying to make chicken salad out of pig’s knuckles, and gradually becoming invested in its success or failure.   Hats off to  him.  May he live forever.

5.   Same general comment on Gust.   I’ve looked at the pictures of him until my eyes cross and he doesn’t look familiar.   If he dressed the way he looks in the still photos I’ve seen, I probably thought he was someone’s bodyguard.   I’m kind of sorry I didn’t know him.   I have a feeling it would have cheered me up considerably.

6.   As for Milt Bearden, he does look familiar.   Can’t say where, but it wasn’t the Embassy.   I’ve never been there.   Possibly in the north, but more likely in Washington DC.   I understand he’s a fine man.   Give him my respectful best wishes and congratulations on the recognition he’s received.   Anybody who can wetnurse Charlie Wilson for that long and to that effect deserves at least the Order of Bombas y Cuerpos, with a Gold Liver Clasp and diamond studded hernia belt.

7.   Wilson did have a STINGER launcher mounted over the door in his office.   Until I saw the History Channel documentary I didn’t realize it was the one used to shoot down the first Hind, but it was there.

8.  One of the other players in this melodrama was Jay Garner, later appointed by the Bush Administration to be the first political czar in Iraq.   As a colonel he was running Artillery Branch in Force Development, the guys who decide how much of something the Army needs, and the STINGERS came out of his procurements.   He was the same fine man then he is now.  And reasonably good-humored about it.

9.   And finally the matter of Chuckie himself.

~  I freely admit I wasn’t around him much, but much of that was by design.  From what I’d heard about him and his antics I knew we weren’t going to be exchanging Christmas cards, and after the program achieved critical mass I didn’t want to screw it up by some untoward remark.   Particularly if it embarrassed Charlie Brown or the Army~or got me fired.

~  But, having said that he was an unlikable son-of-a-bitch, arrogant in an infantile sort of way and convinced of his superior insight and moral superiority.

~  The Defense Attache used his C-12 (a militarized version of the Beechcraft Super Kingair 200)   to haul Wilson around in-country.   On one of his trips to the north (probably Peshawar) Charlie had one of his girlfriends along and the pilot wouldn’t let her on government transport for the return trip to Karachi or Islamabad, or wherever he was going.   As I heard it the pilot wasn’t being difficult, that was just the rules.   Probably Congressionally mandated.   Congressmen’s wives were no problem, Embassy staffers and wives no problem, but girlfriends weren’t supposed to fly at government expense and the pilot stuck to his guns.  I’m told that in the next budget cycle Wilson struck the C-12 flying hour program out of the appropriations bill.   The Air Force provided some training money from other funds, but there was turbulence in the C-12 program for the next several years.  Two acft were taken out of service altogether and there were at least two crashes, both attributed to pilot error.    As I said, I cannot confirm from my own knowledge that Wilson did it, but I was told he did by Legislative Liasion and the Air Staff, and a couple years later by someone in Attache Affairs.   If he did I think that speaks volumes about his capacity for pettiness and his sense of entitlement.   (If provoked I’ll put in a request under the FOIA and see what turns up.   Also have several friends who were C-12 pilots in that era, and I’ll ask them about it.)

~  I also have heartburn with his abortive little flutter into Afghanistan.   What purpose did that serve?  As a soldier I hate to see soldier’s lives put at risk to gratify the childish impulses of

an egomaniacal jerk.   If the Soviets had known he was in Afghanistan, and God forbid they’d captured him, how would that have played out?   Bearden would have had to commit everything he had in the area to save or rescue him, with what result?   I wasn’t anywhere close by when he did it, but I suspect Bearden was.   (I can’t imagine anyone would let Wilson go north without adult supervision.)  I’d be interested in hearing what he has to say about it.

~  And finally, I’m irritated that a man like that receives so much credit for the efforts of the 200-300 Americans who actually made it happen.   The Mike Vickers, Gusts, Infantes, Browns, Beardens, above all the 5th Group trainers and Agency pogues who were the interface between the Muj and America, and all the others who actually made Wilson’s one unquestioned moment of inspiration and clarity a reality.  With a nod from the White House they could have done it without him, but he couldn’t have done it without us.

I understand since his retirement from public life he’s become a lobbyist.   That sounds about right.

In short, I liked the movie but I’m still comfortable with my original impressions of Cocaine Charlie, the man voted one of the twenty least effective legislators in the House of Representatives by House staffers.  I cannot begin to explain the pivotal role he played in all this, and the fact so much good came from the conscience-striken efforts of such a trivial man.   But it did.   He was the maypole we all danced around.   Perhaps the best way  to rationalize him is to characterize him as one of Lenin’s useful idiots.   I doubt Lenin would appreciate the irony, but nothing else makes sense.    If I’m ever near the Reagan Library I plan to stop by and see if there is some kind of PDM or presidential finding authorizing all of this.   I can’t believe Reagan or one of his senior staffers didn’t know about or authorize it.   I’m reinforced in my beliefs by the spate of recent articles about him by others who knew him back then, most recently Robert Scheer, of Creative Syndications, last Monday.

I should also mention in fairness that some of those closest to him still think he’s a prince.   Tomorrow I’ll send along a msg from one of his former staffers who thinks he’s wonderful.   WTFO.  Further deponent sayeth not.

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Comment by Mr.Murder | 2008-01-09 23:16:12

Have not seen the movie.

The name most important to remember is Dan Rather.

He went to Afghanistan to film resistance fighters using ordinance, specifically stingers, and no doubt Rather had CIA advisory handlers all the way.

There’s a damned good chance his people and handlers dealt directly with UBL’s people there as well.

After 9-11 and before Iraq I used to remind people that fact. Nobody really wanted to remind America that it developed the support and communications networks of these groups at prior times. More could be said by Americans who helped elevate the cause of resistance support against the Soviet.

Instead of recounting his prior contacts with these elements of international foreign policy, Rather went for cheap points on a valid “known known” of AWOL’s guard skip legacy. His producer instead burned him, stupid is as stupid does…

Rather could have disclosed his own links to the neocon enablers and the ties since that developed from the days of muj. and that alone would have probably been enough to stymie the Iran/Contra branch of gov’t that was pushing the OSP agenda after 9-11.

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2008-01-09 23:36:17

We have been so quick to make deals that are never in our intrest, long term and when they come to bites in the ass, we always are in denial when Murphy brings FUBAR to the potluck.

 

Comment by Cee | 2008-01-10 09:57:10

My man Zbig said that the people we enlisted in Operation Cyclone were doing God’s work, right?

 
 

Comment by 1Watt, eggumacated | 2008-01-09 23:22:46

Comment by Shirin | 2008-01-10 00:56:23

Dahr is one of a kind. In person he is as humble, down-to-earth, and personable as he is articulate in print. And he “gets” Iraq.

 
 

Comment by Retired | 2008-01-09 23:35:06

I was one of the “Agency pogues” working “midrange” (that is, as a sterile arms supplier overseas) on the project. I happened to have a truly excellent ordinance guy who questioned the Oerlikon idea right off of the bat (as did I), as well as a couple of other, pre-Stinger AA ideas that didn’t make it into the movie. My questions on the Oerlikon were “how are these guys going to move that sucker around?” and “even if the actually get it in the right position, will they hit anything?” Our questions were received with a “you’re too junior to have any imput” response, so we had to standby and watch the various AA solutions go through several unsatisfactory iterations before they actually broke down and coughed up the Stinger. And even then, well, see above.

Hoffman’s portrayal of the now late Gust was pretty accurate.

 

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2008-01-09 23:45:51

Oerlikon 20 mm cannons?

Comment by Retired | 2008-01-10 00:55:42

The very same. Kinda hard for the Muj to lug around if they needed to run fast. You wouldn’t believe where some of them ended up in Agency’s universe of “lethal” beneficiaries.

 
 

Comment by Sometime-CIA-Defender | 2008-01-09 23:58:21

Off topic, but Philip Agee is dead in Cuba at 72.

Comment by Sometime-CIA-Defender | 2008-01-09 23:58:56

Sorry, the link:

MSNBC

Comment by wethornet | 2008-01-10 01:11:48

from the link. given this sites interest in valerie plame i thought this interesting.

Agee’s actions in the 1970s inspired a law criminalizing the exposure of covert U.S. operatives.

But in 2003, he drew a distinction between what he did and the exposure of CIA officer Valerie Plame, the wife of former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, a prominent critic of President Bush’s Iraq policy.

“This is entirely different than what I was doing in the 1970s,” Agee said. “This is purely dirty politics in my opinion.”

Agee said that in his case, he disclosed the identities of his former CIA colleagues to “weaken the instrument for carrying out the policy of supporting military dictatorships” in Greece, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil.

Those regimes “were supported by the CIA and the human cost was immense: torture, executions, death squads,” he said.

Comment by Shirin | 2008-01-10 01:20:23

Yup! And the CIA did some of the same stuff in Iraq back in the ’70’s. We lost some friends as a result of that.

Comment by Retired | 2008-01-10 02:08:45

In the 90s, as well. Yes, we did, to our great shame. Some of us who were involved at the working level were stunned at the betrayal after we had made solemn promises to people that we had lived and worked and broken bread with. We begged, we pleaded, we invoked American honor. And we were issued orders home. The Iraqis that we betrayed told us to leave because they feared what would happen to us if we were caught. What would happen to us, mind you! That is my memory of Iraqi character.

Comment by Shirin | 2008-01-10 02:26:51

Yes, in the nineties too. I know about that as well, but it did not affect us as the business in the ’60’s and ’70’s did. In fact, we have sometimes wondered whether, if we had not left Iraq

 

Comment by Shirin | 2008-01-10 02:32:39

Yes, in the nineties too. I know about that as well, but it did not affect us as the business in the ’60’s and ’70’s did. We had left some time ago - just in time, we have reason to believe. Oddly, our departure had more to do with an opportunity here than it did with the political situation there, but it was lucky timing.

 

Comment by Shirin | 2008-01-10 03:15:34

Your remark about Iraqi character brings to mind the amazing contrast between the impressions of Iraqis held by people who have been in some way close to them, and the people who have been part of the occupation and who have, I believe, been indoctrinated to see them in a particular way.

I am reminded in particular of a perfectly horrifying document sent to me innocently by a person who says he is an officer and was involved in military intelligence there (and I believe him), and which was supposedly prepared by one of the military guys he worked with (or perhaps who worked under him). It purports to compare the character of an American with that of an Iraqi, and supposedly the description of the American character was written by a member of the occupation forces, and the description of the Iraqi character was written by an “Anbar Iraqi” - a concept, by the way, which only exists in the American mind.

Naturally, the American character is a portrait of the ideal human being by American standards. And equally naturally the supposed self-description of the “Anbar Iraqi” (which curiously enough is written in exactly the same English as the American self-description) is a compilation of the very-different-from-American stereotypes Americans have been fed about Arabs in general and Iraqis in particular.

When I told this gentleman that there was simply no way the Iraqi part was a self-description, and that it was obviously made up and written by the same guy who had so idealistically described the American, he said he would be very disappointed if that were true. This is the level of naivete and ignorance of even some of the better people who are occupying Iraq, and is of course propagated happily by the media via embedded reporters as well as pundits and self-appointed “experts”.

Contrast that with the impression of Iraqis on someone like “citizen journalist” Dahr Jamail, who was, for all practical purposes, embedded with Iraqis rather than with invasion/occupation forces. Or, apparently, on you.

One of my biggest irritations from the beginning has been the nonsense that Iraqis have some strange, alien “culture” that requires special study to understand if you are going to to successfully shock, awe, invade and forcibly occupy the country (read achieve submission). My constant message has been that in order to understand Iraqis’ reaction to shock and awe as well as what followed is to realize that at the core of things Iraqis are first and foremost human beings and have the same basic wants, needs, emotions, and reactions as all other human beings including Americans. All the rest is just a matter of different secret handshakes, and you don’t need to know all the secret handshakes to understand Iraqis if you simply put yourself in their place as a human being and imagine how you would react in similar circumstances. As soon as you are willing to do that everything will become perfectly clear (and if you are a decent human being you will become deeply ashamed of what you are participating in).

Comment by Shirin | 2008-01-10 03:32:08

PS I just remembered something someone posted here to the effect that house to house raids such as the ones regularly conducted by Americans in Iraq just don’t work in Iraqi culture. Oh, really? And please tell me in what culture it DOES work to have heavily armed foreigners breaking violently into people’s homes at 3 AM, rampaging through the house, screaming in a foreign language, brandishing weapons, trashing everything in sight, dragging people out of bed in their night clothes, manhandling women and children, forcing the men of the house to the ground on their stomachs in front of the family and neighbors, and pressing their faces into the dirt with boots on the backs of their necks. I was not aware that this was acceptable behaviour in American culture or in any other culture. But then, what do I know?

Comment by Montag | 2008-01-11 01:27:55

Shirin, read the Bill of Rights:

Article III: No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Article IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Comment by Shirin | 2008-01-11 01:53:16

So, Montag, does this mean that what I described would not be considered polite in American culture, and is not something an American host would find pleasurable coming from visitors? Well, then, it seems that this is something that Americans and Iraqis have in common, so why are Americans so mystified that Iraqis also do not appreciate this kind of behaviour?

 
 
 

Comment by Retired | 2008-01-10 13:39:34

It has been my experience that the mainstream American military isolates its soldiers from the foreign societies where they are stationed (for whatever reason), basically because officers (and I speak as one of them) fear (1) blowback from the local populace from a misbehaving few soldiers that it is believed will be out of proportion to the misbehavior, and (2) blowback from the local populace from the insensitive behavior of the many resulting from general ignorance. In other words, to the extent that we can keep our soldiers locked up and segregated from the residents, the safer and happier everyone will be, both them and us. And, more importantly, the less risk to our precious careers.

We must be correct at least on (2), because these actions indicate our own ignorance as officers. While we keep our soldiers locked up, we try to “educate” them on the people that surround them with canned powerpoint presentations, a population about which we ourselves are embarrasingly ignorant. Then we send them out armed with plenty of death and destruction and expect them to sort out the “enemy” from local residents that we have trained them are typified by a burning of hatred of all non-Muslims.

I bought into all of this, too, until I left the military and got a job where I was alone overseas and depended on “the locals” to protect my blue-eyed behind. Then you get a different perspective entirely, and wonder how you could’ve been so stupid.

Comment by Shirin | 2008-01-10 14:23:08

What is interesting is that the particular intelligence officer to whom I referred said he came into close contact with lots and lots of Iraqis every day. I suspect, though, that he rarely came into contact with Iraqis other than the ones who were working for the occupation, who were either willing collaborators, or were doing so out of a desperate need to feed their families. It is also likely that a lot of them were Kurds - not that Kurds are terribly different from other Iraqis, but they had a different take on the American presence, particularly in the beginning.

Truly, though, you should see that supposed self-description. It is more or less the equivalent of an ordinary middle class black American describing himself as a lazy, shiftless, unambitious, ebonics-talking, watermelon-eating, baby-mama-abandoning, crack-smoking gang banger. It is completely appalling, and even more appalling that my correspondent actually bought that it was 1) genuinely a self-description, 2) in any way accurate or realistic.

Comment by Retired | 2008-01-10 15:20:14

You can email it to me at i2739atAOLdotCOM if you would like.

Comment by shirin | 2008-01-11 01:55:04

Will do.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 

Comment by Montag | 2008-01-12 01:14:27

Shirin,
When the U.S. Civil War started Sam Houston warned his fellow Southerners that the war wouldn’t be a walk in the park. They foolishly thought that the Yankees would give up after a few setbacks. Houston warned them that while Yankees were slower to anger than Southerners, once they got mad they STAYED mad.

Well, in 1862 the Union fought the disastrous Battle of Fredricksburg, in which Union soldiers were mowed down in rows to no effect. The Confederates on the heights above were well pleased with the day’s work, figuring–yet again–that a few more such bloody noses would have the Yankees ready to concede Southern Independence. Then from below came a sound that made them gasp in astonishment–the Yankees were SINGING! Proudly, defiantly, they were singing “The Battle Hymn of The Republic.” They were going to keep coming on until they won.

Now if Americans are capable of misjudging our own countrymen like that, why should our track record with actual FOREIGNERS be any better? People will always believe what they want to believe–until they’re hit over the head with reality.

 
 
 
 
 
 

Comment by Retired | 2008-01-10 01:57:09

Agee is a self-righteous asshole. In the late 1980s, he was caught in a democratic (albeit a corrupt democracy) Latin American country that is hardly a pawn of the U.S. conducting active counterintelligence operations against the CIA station, most likely in the pay of the DGI. Except for the loss of business for the prostitutes that the old fart frequented, he probably won’t be missed.

 
 

Comment by Cee | 2008-01-10 10:00:26

My, my. My oldest brother interviewed him on a major DC radio station years ago. Later in the week he received a transcript of the show in the mail. No note. Just the transcript.

 
 
 

Comment by justsomeone | 2008-01-09 23:59:13

ordinance? ordnance? am kinda suprised Mr Murder & retired both opt for spelling #1 & this is coming from me who can’t spell my way outta a paper bag, what’s up? Or are you guys going for a duel meaning?

Comment by Retired | 2008-01-10 00:53:48

In my case, I got distracted by the TV. Alan Combs was opining that the reason that the NH pre-election polls were so wrong was that white voters lied to the pollsters about voting for Obama and then “in the sanctitty of the voting booth” refused to vote for a black guy and chose Hillary, who was comfortingly white.

(Yes, that misspelling above is a joke. Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2008-01-10 01:10:01

Alan Combs was told that by Officer Obey. Poor Bastard.

 
 
 

Comment by peg | 2008-01-10 00:08:39

i wondered if the Sibel Edmonds story was in “tinfoil hat” territory on this diary and was assured that i wasn’t — and was directed to this diary by Mr Johnson
Check Out Sibel Edmonds

i wonder if Mr Johnson has any comments on the recent piece by Chris Floyd
The Bomb in the Shadows: Proliferation, Corruption and the Way of the World — where the Clintons may have a role in the mess — any opinion??
(i live in SC and my primary is coming up — i am kinda leaning Obama but i respect Mr Johnson’s opinion which is why i come here and read the diaries. thanks!)

btw, anyone read the review of Charlie Wilson’s War by Chalmers Johnson?

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2008-01-10 00:43:00

From pegs second link..The Bomb in the Shadows.

BCCI was a prime vehicle for clandestine nuclear proliferation

Look at the Sen. John Kerry’s work on BCCI. He has done his home work and the investigation records are detailed.

 

Comment by Larry Johnson | 2008-01-10 01:09:35

I’ll check out the piece.

Re Chalmers, he’s grinding an axe. Major factual error in his piece, the US did not provide Stingers to any Arabs. Only went to the Afghans.

The people who attacked us on 9-11 came primarily from Saudi Arabia.

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2008-01-10 01:33:34

I remember reading that a number of stingers where sold to third parties besides the Russians…There was never a full accounting was there?

 

Comment by peg | 2008-01-10 09:38:07

thank you !

 

Comment by lidia | 2008-01-11 16:27:18

Hm, and WHO put in place “The people who attacked us on 9-11″? CIA did, and EXACTLY because of their role in Afghanistan (so called “Afghan Arabs”) In short, CIA founded Bin Laden, even though mostly via SA and Pakistan.

 

Comment by nunya | 2008-01-22 23:49:52

Larry, what do you mean by saying that Chalmers Johnson is grinding an axe?

Are you saying that there were no Arabs fighting with the Afghans in Afghanistan against the Soviets in the 80’s? Or that no stingers were directly handed over to Arab jhadis?

Is this grinding an axe?

http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/chalmers_video

Or is someone who spent years as an educator trying to educate?

 
 
 

Comment by wethornet | 2008-01-10 00:27:08

WOW! This guy hit one out of the park! This is a grand slam. This is the stuff that makes NQ so great; it is one of the best postings I have ever read here.

Larry already vouched for this man, but I want to add that his account tracks with my experience as a young ADA, Air Defense Artillery Lieutenant in the mid 1980’s. West Germany. HAWK missiles which have since been replaced by the PATRIOT missile system. But I was trained on Stingers at Ft. Bliss, TX.

I will quickly emphasize that I had nothing to do with training the Afghanis, or working policy at the Pentagon, etc, etc. I was just an Army LT toiling in the vineyards in Deutschland.

My Battalion commander (for those who don’t know, that’s a Lt. Col.) had worked for MG Infante. (MG’s are British sports cars, and also Major Generals. Or 2 stars. The way to remember the pecking order — and the military is all about pecking orders is the following: Be My Little General. Brigadier (1 star), Major (2), Lieutenant (3), General (4).) I know someone quite well who worked in the Army’s Legislative Affairs section. Didn’t know Gen. Charlie Brown, but the characterizations of Army Generals from the Chief of Staff on down tracks, and the policy making aspects — I would later work for Congress critters, House and Senate — ring true. As does, regrettably the fallout of not flying the Congressmen’s girlfriend; the culture of politicans can’t be so petty when they get crossed.

WTFO is What The Flip, Over. (polite version.)

 

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2008-01-10 00:55:42

I really enjoyed reading this account. There where alot of folks bustin buts… I would like to know what they have to say in retrospect.

 

Comment by justsomeone | 2008-01-10 02:47:54

I’m waiting for the sequel. Inquiring minds want to know how so many mooja runners ended up at Bank of America eatin’ a stock loss from the subprime & more importantly if Brezinski’s blowback was a hit or a miss. I have a personality flaw: am always hopeful there’s a plan. I’m so screwed up I’m hopeful there’s a 50yr/100yr plan ’cause the 20yr/30yr modeling only looks like a sputterin’ joy ride for defense contractors & a crash n burn for the peanut gallery. Maybe the Big plan is we disguise ourselves as a 3rd world country & just blend into the background…now that would be a really special op. That could really mess with some minds. 26 trillion in the hole & compounding, the new American wizardry, man it is genius! Let’s take our ameroes & invest in synthetic DNA that claims it can make oil from H20 molecules…

Comment by wethornet | 2008-01-10 03:35:19


Maybe the Big plan is we disguise ourselves as a 3rd world country & just blend into the background…now that would be a really special op. That could really mess with some minds.

justsomeone, hardcore folks on the right will tell you that is the plan. the NWO is to turn the globe into a plantation for the globalist bankers and we are all serfs.

in order for that to happen the good ol’ u.s. of a has to be destroyed.

one of the principal ways to destroy a country is get it in debt up to it’s eyeballs. ergo, incessant war.

the worst president ever until w. came along was woodrow wilson. read thomas fleming’s book the illusion of victory.

an evil toad would say should destroy our manufacturing base, have a stranglehold on the media so we can control the 6 most important inches in an individual, the space between your ears. that we should ahve the cia import drugs into america. see inspector gen. hitz’s report in 1998. iran contra. sorry, it happened. facts are stubborn things and all that. there’s more but you get the idea.

imho, there is the mother of all economic sh*tstorms approaching this country. not saying it will happen. but it could. and the establishment is making things worse.

the right isn’t always wrong.

 
 

Comment by shoephone | 2008-01-10 03:26:50

Wow, you guys are all blowing my little mind, recounting your experiences.

Larry, thanks so much for bringing this piece here. Fascinating, to say the least, even if I don’t understand all the acronyms.

Comment by wethornet | 2008-01-10 03:38:31

don’t worry about the alaphabet soup stuff. you got the gist of it. if you put two words together the military slaps an acronym on it.

one that is useful to know is that fbnc = ft. bragg, north carolina. home of the 82nd, special forces and delta force.

Comment by shoephone | 2008-01-10 05:18:19

Thanks wethornet. That was the one I had the hardest time figuring out.

Comment by The Author | 2008-01-11 04:05:29

Sorry I didn’t spell out what some of these acronyms mean.

ODRP–Office of Defense Requirements Program.
Many countries have milgroups, but the name is usually worked out with the host nation, and normally reflects their sensitivities. This name is peculiar to Pakistan.

DCSOPS–The Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations.

DCSLOG–The Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics.

DATT–Defense Attache

ARSTAFF–The Army Staff

MTT–Mobile Training Team

FBNC–As described

WTFO–Exactly what Wethornet said it was

 
 
 
 

Comment by wethornet | 2008-01-10 03:45:53

speaking of milt bearden. has he said/written anything about pakistan since the bhutto assassination? does he write essays on the web? if so, where?

are there any articles/interviews, etc, about how the u.s. walked away from afghanistan? we disrupt the shit out of your country, war’s over (for us), we won, best dealing with the chaos, bye, see ya.

my 2 cents. i would prefer that we didn’t meddle in other country’s affairs. ron paul is exactly right on the constitution and what the founders wanted. but, if we are going to do so, then we help, and not abandon, our allies.

Comment by Shirin | 2008-01-10 03:49:51

we disrupt the shit out of your country, war’s over (for us), we won, best dealing with the chaos, bye, see ya.

PLEASE do that with Iraq! PLEEEEEEEEEEZE! Iraq will have no hope of mending itself until you are gone, so go. Soon. Please.

Comment by wethornet | 2008-01-10 04:45:18

i wish we would shirin, i wish we would.
~~
while i’ve got you. did you see my comments downblog — sorry, i don’t know where, stuff’s happening a little to rapidly here at nq — w/i the last day or two, about the iraq war documentary http://www.meetingresitance.com? and of which, i cannot say enough about.

 
 

Comment by Mr.Murder | 2008-01-10 09:36:59

Ron Paul takes nationalism a bit too far.

 
 

Comment by wethornet | 2008-01-10 04:48:15

for a different take on the movie, here’s this film critic.


Charlie Wilson’s War

A brilliant demonstration of how Hollywood can take a true story of history and politics and remove all the truth, history and politics from it. Charlie Wilson’s War turns the illegal covert funding of fanatics — fanatics we’re still dealing with — into a wacky escapade with no consequences whatsoever. I can’t wait for the invasion-of-Iraq comedies!


http://www.cinematical.com/2007/12/31/the-ten-worst-films-of-2007-jamess-take/

link to the full review.
http://www.cinematical.com/2007/12/21/review-charlie-wilsons-war-jamess-take/

Comment by Shirin | 2008-01-10 13:16:35

Charlie Wilson’s War turns the illegal covert funding of fanatics — fanatics we’re still dealing with — into a wacky escapade with no consequences whatsoever. I can’t wait for the invasion-of-Iraq comedies!

My sentiments exactly. When are people going to stop glorifying imperialist-minded, short-sighted, ultimately disastrous stupidity?

 
 

Comment by Taters | 2008-01-10 09:12:55

This is absolutely terrific Larry, please thank your friend.

 

Comment by John | 2008-01-10 09:51:20

I happened to spend some time in Chitral in NW Pakistan in the autumn of 1981 and what I remember was the appalling conditions in the Afghani refugee camps with winter coming on. I also saw a lot of kids hanging around the rotting canvas tents.
Guess they just ended up in the madrassas in Peshauer with the crazy mullahs. For the price of one of those fucking missiles, I bet it would have been possible to set up a school for those kids. Huh? what a concept?
But oh no, everyone was feeling sorry for themselves (the defeat in Nam and Iran) and had a hard on for the soviets…and by God it was morning in Murika and we were gonna kick some commie ass using brown people in turbans surrogates. Poison gas precursors to Saddam and missles to the ragheads.
Look where it got us.
Blowback’s a bitch. The Catholics call it sins of omission. You pay for them.
I am not going to see the movie because I don’t think I want to see Forrest Gump does Afghanistan.
It will just piss me off too much.

Comment by bama_barrron | 2008-01-10 11:15:45

john i read the book so i’m not sure about seeing the movie … i almost never like a movie after reading the book. as to your points, i agree while i find it most interesting to hear from the folks who were so intimately involved in the program. their thinking then and their thinking now … it never fails to enthrall me or sometimes disgusts me.

as to this operation, why should it surprise anyone that a foregin policy driven by payback would have such disastorous blowback. there is no way you will ever convince me the top echelon of the reagan adminstration wasnt aware and endorsed this operation. hopefully, in the not so distance future this country will spend as much effort and money waging peace as we do war. what a concept … hey.

 

Comment by OleHippieChick | 2008-01-10 13:32:11

Thank you for saying, John.

That these loose-cannon, hubristic types and their hairball actions-without-findings or whatever they’re called, are glorified when they’re found out is pretty outrageous, yet there’s never any outrage at what they’ve actually done!

All this knee-jerk meddling - spun now as adventurous and romantic heroism and patriotism and advancing our “cause” - has set us up for a fall.

We scratch our heads and only later find out the real reasons for the blowback. When the dots are finally connected, people are past caring, but they do love a good yarn.

 
 

Comment by Minnesotachuck (aka ExPFC Chuck) | 2008-01-10 10:56:32

Not being up to date with military and national security acronyms, what is FBNC?

Comment by shoephone | 2008-01-10 14:53:11

ft. bragg, north carolina. home of the 82nd, special forces and delta force.

I just learned that from wethornet last night.

 
 

Comment by Mr.Murder | 2008-01-10 11:00:39

Former CIA official wants immunity before telling House about destroying interrogation tapes
Judge agrees not to hold hearings while Justice Department investigates.
Click-2-Listen
By Matt Apuzzo

ASSOCIATED PRESS

Thursday, January 10, 2008

WASHINGTON — Attorneys for Jose Rodriguez told Congress that the former CIA official won’t testify about the destruction of CIA videotapes without a promise of immunity, two people close to the tapes inquiry said Wednesday.

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/nation/01/10/0110cia.html
Apuzzo’s a mole for the GOP if memory serves. Almost everything he puts out there helps shape perception for the party in power.

Don’t give us another Ollie North. If he will not disclose, throw his ass in jail.

Unless you get prior admission of testimony on the record so as not to have him change it in court.

Comment by Cee | 2008-01-10 11:03:22

Judge won’t inquire into CIA tapes case
By MATT APUZZO, Associated Press Writer Wed Jan 9, 6:24 PM ET

WASHINGTON - A federal judge refused on Wednesday to delve into the destruction of CIA interrogation videos, saying there was no evidence the Bush administration violated a court order and the Justice Department deserved time to conduct its own investigation.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/cia_videotapes_8

Comment by wethornet | 2008-01-10 13:02:34

and which gop president appointed said judge? and how long has he been a member of the federalist society? jes asking.

 
 
 

Comment by bama_barrron | 2008-01-10 11:02:07

a great post!

but like some others, when y’all starting throwing around acronyms my eyes glaze over and i remember why i dropped latin after the first term. a glossary could help dummies like me.

 

Comment by Mr.Murder | 2008-01-10 11:17:36

Tony Blair & JPMorgan: the Enron connection
http://www.davidosler.com/2008/01/tony_blair_jpmorgan_the_enron.html

Tony Blair is all over the media today, after taking up a £500,000 a year part-time job as an adviser JPMorgan Chase. The former prime minister expects this to be the first of “a small handful” of similar appointments.

Some idea of the centre of political gravity at the Wall Street investment bank can be ascertained by donations made by its employees to the current crop of presidential candidates. Support for Republicans totals $45,550; support for Democrats, zero.
The only surprise here is the relative stinginess of backing for the GOP. Some of those guys will presumably be running up annual cocaine bills higher than that.

And would it be unhelpful of me to mention that this is the very same JPMorgan that was in 2003 forced to pay the Securities and Exchange Commission a fine of $135m - as well as a further $12.5m to New York City and New York State – in connection with its involvement in the Enron scandal?

The SEC charged that, together with their rivals Citigroup, Blair’s new company helped the defunct Texas-based energy trader to disguise loans as cash, in order to rip-off investors.

Enron money is being used to launder ongoing political campaigns worldwide. Previous assertions made by myself said that a heigtened scrutiny should be placed upon companies that dealt with the energy scam. Much of South Central Asia’s current wars, assassinations, scandals, have ties back to the same money network.

In one deal involving JP Morgan, Enron sold to a company called Mahonia a long-term contract to deliver gas. Mahonia had a market capitalization of about $15. It was simply a mask for JP Morgan, which funded its operations.
In return, Enron made an agreement with another Morgan subsidiary, Stoneville Aegean, to buy gas in monthly installments at the price paid by Mahonia, plus interest. Thus, nearly $400 million flowed from JP Morgan to Enron and back to JP Morgan. Enron got a lump sum of cash and paid it back periodically, plus interest. In ordinary parlance, this is a loan. But it was not disclosed as such by Enron or the bank …

The banks were not innocent or deceived parties in these transactions: they were active participants in the fraud. While there have been no charges that any of the entities set up by the banks were illegal, the banks were aware that Enron was using the prepays to defraud investors.

According to a January, 2003 report by the Senate subcommittee investigating the banks’ involvement with Enron: “The evidence associated with the four transactions [known as Fishtail, Sundance, Slapstick and Bacchus] demonstrates that Citigroup and Chase actively aided Enron in executing them, despite knowing the transactions utilized deceptive accounting or tax strategies, in return for substantial fees or favorable consideration in other business dealings.”

If you’re reading this, Tony, here’s a useful bit of advice you can offer the firm; steer clear of obvious cowboys. It only brings you grief in the end.
Posted at 13:40, 10 January 2008

Look at those donations closely. The current GOP race is getting a cash infusion from Enron’s getaway crew, laundering from abroad.

Enron was behind the 42 million to the rulers in Afghanistan before 9-11. It was behind the pipeline deals that even Obama advisors like Brzezinski and GH Venture Partner and current GOP campaign policy consultant Henry Kissinger were backing…

Enron jets flew GOP staffers to Florida to riot and block recount efforts in an election theft.

Now you see why Blair backed Bush and overrode dissent re: The Downing Minutes.

Follow the Money.
Enron’s account firm Arthur Andersen went to the UK when it was on probation for accounting Enron’s spiraling pyramid scheme. There they also helped bolster member sof the Iraqi National Congress including liar in chief Ahmed Chalabi who was our number one witness for the OSP’s prewar WMD claims and various puppets he had that were part of the original Coalition Provisional Authority.

The above links and stories aren’t perhaps very politically popular to readers here, but the corporate media isn’t going to touch it with a ten foot pole.

Comment by Cee | 2008-01-10 15:38:36

Thank you for your contributions to this forum.

This was the first thing I read about the Enron tentacles

http://www.albionmonitor.com/0202a/enroncoverup.html

The Puzzle of the Enron Coverups