Fear and Loathing in Michigan and Florida
By Alegre on March 24, 2008 at 12:55 AM in Barack Obama, Democrats, Florida, Hillary Clinton, Howard Dean, Michigan
Howard Dean’s refusal to lead us out of this mess he’s created in Florida and Michigan has set the stage for Sen. Obama to drag his heels in an effort to disenfranchise millions of Democrats in those two states. States we’ll need if we’re going to win the general election.
Obama seems to have a pattern of keeping people out of the electoral process going right back to his very first race for the IL Senate, when he did all he could to prevent the voters from having a say by keeping his opponent off the ballot. This pattern of Chicago smack-down politics continues in FL & MI.
Now he’s throwing aside 2 million Democrats in these key states in an effort to push Hillary aside - it’s all about him as usual. No concern for what this will mean for our party (including the Democrats down-ticket) when thousands and thousands of Democrats stay home in November. No concern as to what he’s saying to them (you don’t matter to me). No concern for how this will affect our party’s chances in November in these key states.
Add to that his efforts to convince everyone that it’s time for Hillary to drop out of this race before the last 10 states have had a say in this. This shows us he’s willing to disenfranchise the voters in those states too. I’m seeing a definite pattern here guys and it’s not a pretty one… Obama cares about himself - NOT our party or the Democrats who vote in our elections.
I won’t presume to know what’s in Obama’s heart, but if I were to hazard a guess I’d have to say it’s almost as if he’s afraid to face Hillary in a fair election. It’s almost as if he knows that if the playing field were level, he’d have his backside handed to him, so he does whatever it takes to tilt that field to his advantage and to hell with the Democrats who’re caught in whatever games he plays along the way.
In the case of FL & MI, he’s doing all he can to make sure of a few things…
That the delegates chosen during the January primaries aren’t seated.
And
That it’s impossible for the states to hold new primaries - he knows the republican controlled legislatures won’t act as long as they have his refusal to allow new votes as an excuse.
Failure to seat the current delegates or hold new primaries (he hopes) will leave FL and MI Democrats with few options but from what I understand, he’s hoping for something along these lines…
Dividing up the currently allotted delegates in a way that gives him more than he would have initially gotten, thereby ignoring the wishes of the Democrats in MI & FL.
Chucking it all and holding caucuses in states that are primary states.
Caucuses have consistently favored BO - we all know that. Whether it’s due to the bullying and dirty tricks that go on in these caucuses, or the fact that Hillary’s supporters are routinely shut out of these votes simply because they can’t make it to the caucus site at the set place and time (usually in the evenings), the caucus states usually go to him.
The elderly who can’t drive at night.
Shift workers who can’t get away from work in the evenings.
Waiters & waitresses who work the dinner hour.
Parents who can’t get childcare so they can go to their local caucus.
They’re all shut out of having their voices heard in caucus sates. So he has every interest in making sure MI & FL can’t seat the delegates they chose through primaries, and don’t hold new primaries.
He wants to rig things in the states in a sad effort to disenfranchise my family in Michigan so he can steal a few delegates from Hillary.
Now I worked the phone banks on primary day in OH & TX and I spent the day (12 hours of it) calling Texas to explain how things would work down there and I wrote up some notes afterward. Take a look…
I spent all day Tuesday calling voters in Texas, explaining how their system works when it comes to choosing a presidential nominee for our party. It’s an open primary. Anyone can turn up and vote to help determine who our champion will be in the general election. The party big-wigs decided they want to make the voters turn up not once but twice to make their vote count to the fullest extent possible. The primary counts for 70% and the precinct conventions (aka caucuses) account for the final 30%. Polls were set to close at 7pm - machines would be cleared out and the convention packets would be released to the folks running that part of the show at around 7:15.
Now the thing about Texas is that this is system is geared so that working folks, the elderly, and people who have responsibilities during the evenings are cut out of the second half of the process - their vote basically only counts as 70% of that of someone with a more flexible schedule, can get out / drive at night and are healthy enough to make it to the caucuses. This cuts out a lot of Hillary’s core constituency and should favor Obama and YET he still managed to lose the state to her. We were calling even after the polls were set to close because there were still long lines of people waiting to get in to vote in the primaries. We asked people we know voted for Hillary to get back to their polling place to sign in for Hillary at their precinct convention (caucus). It broke my heart to hear one senior citizen after another tell me it wasn’t possible for them to get back - they couldn’t drive or couldn’t get out after dark etc. Or they were 88 and not able to get around so well any more.
The frustration in their voices said it all - the caucus system is NOT fair to them, to folks who work the night shift, wait tables in the evenings, or to parents who can’t get babysitters for their young kids so they could return and log in the other 30% of their vote. Caucuses are heavily weighted toward affluent, young and healthy people with flexible schedules. Texas is especially unfair in that they make you turn up twice to get your entire vote counted. It’s almost as if BO’s supporters have a built-in 30% advantage and yet Hillary was STILL able to beat him at this screwed up game. That and she was outspent 3 to 1 in that state.
This was his third chance at locking this thing up and he blew it - again. What’s that say about his ability to win in the general election? I hope to hell they don’t replace the results in FL & MI with new votes in a caucus - it would so disenfranchise thousands and thousands of voters Democrats - not just once but for a SECOND time. They’ve got to hold out for the seating of those delegates. NO ifs, ands or buts.
One other thing about Texas… I was also working the phones the Sunday before primary day, talking with voters in Texas. I spoke with one woman who told me that BO’s camp is actively seeking out support from Republicans in Texas. How did she know this you may ask? She said her husband was a Republican - he passed away 2 or 3 years ago but she’d received 3 calls from BO’s camp in the past 24 hours, asking that he cross over and vote in the Democratic primary on March 4th. Three calls - that’s no accident folks. And neither was the message they were sending out to Texas Republicans.
He was reaching out to Democrats in Texas, just as he has in any other state that’s had an open ballot. Remember Nevada and those horrid flyers?
Big Tent Democrat over at Talk Left posted something on that Nevada flyer when the story broke, and he closes his post with the following…
As I have said before, Obama is a fighter for Obama. He is not a fighter for the Democratic Party or Democratic values. This flyer is emblematic of everything that is wrong with the Obama campaign. Be a Democrat FOR A DAY. For Obama. But not for the Democratic Party or for Democratic values.
Back on Feb. 28th (before Hillary’s big wins on March 4th), Christopher Beam of Slate posted a great write-up of how the votes have broken down so far. Take a look…
It’s well-known that Barack Obama’s success has depended largely on independent and Republican voters. The corollary to that, however, has been less thoroughly reported: Obama is losing among Democrats.
Over at the Perfect World, Cal Lanier crunches the numbers and finds that Obama, despite being ahead among pledged delegates, has fewer total votes among people who identify themselves as Democrats. (He has 7,392,809 votes; Clinton has 8,229,063.) That gives Clinton as lead with 52 percent of Democrats.
It helps you understand why the party gives so much power to its 796 superdelegates. If they didn’t, independents and Republicans could essentially hijack their election. It also makes you wonder whether Clinton should start citing this number, if she maintains her lead through the convention in August. Even if Obama leads in the popular vote and among pledged delegates, it might disturb party gray beards to learn that the nominee has essentially been chosen by outsiders.
Hillary’s not only running strong after her big wins in states where BO should have won handily, but she’s actually ahead in the popular vote if you go by the DEMOCRATS who took part in our party’s primaries and caucuses. Updated with the results in early Feb. (where she won 3 of the 4 states up for grabs that day) and the numbers look like this….
Hillary 10,166,262
Obama 8,973,276
Giving Hillary an advantage among Democrats over Obama by a margin of 1,192,986 votes
Now as the Slate article notes, these are slightly rough numbers as they’re based on exit polls, but still… well over a million vote lead among Democrats voting in our party’s primaries and caucuses. If I were BO I wouldn’t tout that elected delegate count too loudly if I were him. Obama can’t have it both ways. He can’t actively recruit votes from outside our party and then say that Hillary can’t look to our party’s super delegates to help put her over the top. Neither candidate will win this thing purely on the popular vote so the supers will have a role to play in determining our nominee. BO claims to be ahead in the actual popular vote but when you take out the votes by people who some have noted may be actively working to throw our elections to what they see as our weaker candidate, then Hillary’s winning this thing hands down.
Hillary’s beating Obama among Democratic voters by over a million votes.
Now that right there would be a compelling argument for siding with Hillary if I were a super delegate.
Obama had better get used to Hillary being in this race. She’s not dropping for some very real reasons. She’s going to win and win big in Pennsylvania. Then she’ll go on to take all the state’s she’s running strong in AND take North Carolina and Oregon.
You heard it hear first folks ;o)
I listened to Ed Schultz the other day (OK, I needed a good laugh!) and he was ranting about the fact that not seating the delegates from Michigan and Florida would have no effect on Obama winning in Nov because they would all vote for him.
I’m from Michigan and I can tell you that if Obama gets away with this BS, I will vote for McCain or sit this one out. And the loss to the Democratic Party will be squarely on his shoulders.
Obama played a game with his name on the ballot. He doesn’t deserve any delegates (IMHO) from the wonderful state of Michigan. And don’t get me started on Florida!!!
Sam Seder said pretty much the same thing yesterday, in regards to Pennsylvania- “It doesnt matter how much Hillary wins Pennsylvania by, it will have NO IMPACT on the delegate total or Obama’s popular vote lead…”
I feel like a lot of these hosts are like little children with their fingers in their ears, bleating “lalalalala” whenever you try to confront them with facts. If Obama would “win Michigan and Florida anyway,” why oppose a revote which could only serve to legitimize your nomination? Is Obama really SO FAR AHEAD in the popular vote that a 250,000-vote margin for Hillary in PA won’t “make any difference?” Please!
And of course, again and again, we are told that Hillary “can’t win without the Superdelegates,” and never you mind that Obama can’t either- that is not to be discussed. Bill Richardson is going to betray New Mexico’s voters by throwing his vote to Obama- after all, the vote there was “really close.” Because it’s all about WINNING. What a joke.
If you want fairness and honesty you won’t find it on Air America. I used to be a regular listener and now I don’t bother. If I want to hear sellout-bullshit-Obama-is-the-one blather I would listen/watch Keith Olbamann. Fortunately I don’t listen/watch anything on MSNBC anymore. I think you lose both I.Q. and ethical points for doing so.
Air America major league disappointment. Mark Green just another Obama shill as is Sam Sedar, Rachel Maddow and Rantin Rhandi Rhodes. Too bad really. They were supposed to be a liberal radio station. Instead they decided to be the Obama radio station and therefore have no credibility whatsoever.
SHAZAM..
This is a Great Piece Alegre..
and The Military Brags about Its Smart Bombs..
You are more on target than they are..
Yep..Hillarys a Fighter too.gets In the Trenchs and does hand to hand Combat..has dozens of knife wounds and hasn’t gone down yet..
Give Em Hell..Hillary…!!!!
Personally, I don’t care how disenfranchising voters in MI and FL will influence the general election. What bothers me is the disenfranchisement of voters for the sins of their legislators, and Obama’s refusal to allow a revote. Disenfranchisement is disenfranchisement regardless of the outcome. Even if Hillary were to win this nomination, but the votes of MI and FL are not counted, I have a hard time maintaining my “Democrat” identity.
Some things–enfranchisement–are much more important than some one-time election. Hillary and Barack will come and go, but will a precedent of disenfranchising voters go away?
alegre is right — Obama only cares about Obama. He is only interested in winning at all costs. I don’t see why this is left to Obama — Hillary was the winner in both states and it should be her decision. Now that its too late for a revote — the Convention should seat these delegates. Obama has an answer for that too — he wants to get the nomination first and then seat the delegates. If Obama was trying to destroy the Democratic Party he couldn’t have done a better job. I guess the Democrats would rather lose the Presidency and Congress then heaven forbid be — POLITICALLY INCORRECT.
I completely agree with this. We are Democrats, and we do not stand for disenfranchisement. Period.
If the millions of voters from Michigan and Florida are ignored, that is disenfranchisement. Howard Dean is in a rough spot here, but he should never have said he would not seat the MI/FL delegates if their state parties moved up the elections. He is punishing the Democratic voters for what the Republican state legislatures did.
If I were Howard Dean, I would have pushed for real election reform right away. I would have tried to get a one-day Democratic national primary sometime in February or March of 2008, with instant runoff voting. The nominee would now be chosen by now, and we’d have none of this nonsense about votes not counting. We would also be done with Iowa and NH choosing our President. Two red states get to pick the Democratic nominee? WTF?
Anyway, HoDo needs to acknowledge that BHO will never go along with anything that would be fair to Hillary and honor the will of the voters of MI/FL. He just needs to seat the delegates as they are and state that he will reform the system completely by 2012. Problem solved.
Today my sister-in-law asked me why the Democrats are disenfranchising voters. She also asked me to clarify what “caucuses” were all about and then said “Sounds like whomever wins the beauty/popularity contest takes the prize.”
People are getting it.
“The ghastly erosion of principle and decency on the left is no trivial story. Arguably, this development is more important than is the election itself.”- Joe Cannon
Awesome piece, Alegre!
Alegre..well done! Keep pokin’, the Kool-aid bubble is bound to burst very soon.
Alegre, once again you hit the nail squarely on the head. I also like the point made by gqmartinez regarding his concern about what kind of precedent this will set.
I would like to make another point though. Given that our Democratic leadership seems to be very “undemocratic” these days, what does that say about who they are and what they stand for?
How do we even know they will press forward with the issues most of us cherish?
Who needs republicans disenfranchising voters when we have Dean, the DNC, and Obama doing it?
According to the rules, the votes cast in MI and FL do count. It’s the delegates that are at issue and the rules say that the penalty is for 50% of the delegates awarded will count. That’s the automatic part but it’s subject to an appeal to the rules committee and a decision by them. My guess is, the delegates will be seated and counted.
Obama cares about himself - NOT our party or the Democrats who vote in our elections.
Am I surprised?
Obama’s a rank amateur. Think about it. He still hasn’t successfully fought a single campaign and he’s getting into so much trouble. Everything about him smacks of greed - the house over budget that needed a shady deal when there were other reasonable houses with the same beneficial tax situation only blocks away… His EYES (and those of his lovely spouse Michelle) get so BIG… They can’t help themselves. Poor sweet things.
They oppose both states having votes count because Hillary would garner the popular vote to the extent Obama could no longer do his Superdelgates tap dance.
In 2004 I was a Fla elected delegate, i will not vote in Nov if our delegates are not seated as voted for, by the people of my state Of Florida.
I have worked very hard on a volunteer basis as a poll watcher at large. I have worked early vote , many times 15 hours straight a day for early vote and for the general and primary’s.
I have been requested by candidates to go into minority areas to ensure every Dem voter was not disenfranchised.
I will never do it again, as it is now a Dem minority candidiate that has stolen my vote.
It is now the Dem leadership that has stolen my vote.
Many of us in Florida have had our votes stolen since 2000.
It happened in 2002, in 2004 and in 2006 , because of Dre voting machines.
I was part of a testing group in 2004 that did a surprise test on the Dre Sequoia voting machines in my county. 5 people voted on the machines as part of the test, we also had a verifier person who over saw that we voted what the blind papers told us to vote.
The machine I was voting on failed miserably, it was filmed and I and the verifier wrote all over the test vote papers how the machine failed. The following day the Large newspaper here in Florida reported that the test went well with no problems, I could not believe my eyes.
I and many Dems in my county began trying to get these machines removed from our election process, to no avail.
Last May a bill was put forth to remove the DRE voting machines in all of Florida, after 18,000 votes went missing in the county below mine , in Sarasota.
4 citizens , highly dedicated to removing these machines were able to get a bill before our state republican majority legislature.
That bill made Florida the first state in the nation to ban DRE voting machines, and mandate Vpter Verified paper Ballot voting machines.
My husband and i helped pay for an Audit after the 2006 election, a friend of mine was getting the Audit done of our voting machines. Well after putting up the money and fighting the state to get the audit , we got it. But we were to find out from the state auditor , that there was no possibility of doing an audit of the machines we had. The state auditor sat here in our supervisor of elections office for two days doing nothing as there was nothing he could do. The voting machine company had proprietary rights. We could never have an audit done of these DRE voting machines. we could never reconcile an election in our county with those machines.
4 citizens with alot of support of the citizens ( mostly dems ) fought the state to put a bill forward to stop the use of these machines in our elections.
They succeeded. it was May of last year.
The republicans then screwed the people of Florida by attaching to that bill the date change of the primary.
We truely believed Dean and the DNC would applaude the citizens of Florida. Instead Dean immediately said Florida broke the rules and would be sanctioned , but almost right away he said we should do a caucus.The push began to try to get the FDP to do a caucus, and ignore the results of a primary.
many of us did not understand why the heavy duty push to Florida to do a caucus. Now i have no doubt why.
I believe the fix was in all the way back to last May.
Call it tin foil, but I have watched this from the get go. One of the 4 people involved with the Bill for the voting machines called me from inside the state capitol when the bill was passing. It was a good day for Voters of Florida.
But then the state republican legislators added to that bill, the primary date change.
We are still the first and only state in the nation to outlaw the DRE voting machines and to mandate Voter Verified Paper Ballots.
For that we have had our delegates stripped from representing the will of our voters by Howard Dean who is supporting Obama and Donna Brazile another big Obama supporter , who was leader of the group who decided the sanctions against Florida.
The rules state they could strip any state that changed the date of their primary before the First Tuesday of Feb 1/2 their delegates.
Donna Brazile decided we would lose them all, over and above the rules on the books.
When those running the party can arbitrarily support one candidate and impose sanctions on a state to make their candidate a leader by excluding voters of any state, they should be removed from office immediately. It is malpractice in my book.
When one candidate can decide to exclude an entire states voters will, that is not democracy.
I will stay home this November.
The democratic party in my eye is no better than the republicans who stole my vote.
They don’t want my vote to decide our nominee they will not get my vote this November or any time in the future.
I feel that strongly about it, and many people I know here in Fla , the people who do the work and have for many, many years in Fla ..also will be staying home.
After this November , I will be changing my affiliation to independent.
The DNC will not get the large checks from me any longer.
The democratic party will no longer get another dime from me.
I am a member of the DEC Executive committee, I will be resigning.
I will be resigning from the many Dem clubs I belong to.
I am finished with the Democratic party.
I feel strongly that I must make a stand against Howard Dean and Donna Brazile and those who wanted to and planned the disenfranchisement of Florida voters. I hold the DNC accountable.
And it is very clear to me that Dean and the powers that be in the national DNC wanted to force a caucus on Florida..long before anyone in the nation and many Florida voters knew anything about what they were doing.
I only hope the FDP does not allow that. In any way, shape or form.
But I will assure the DNC and those reading this, Florida will go to McCain. As will our electoral votes.
Dean , Donna Brazile , Obama , and I believe Tom Dashle should be held accountable.
I consider myself and my husband ..non Americans now, we were again robbed of our votes.
It is not a pleasant feeling.
I guess when Dean said he had a 50 state plan, he was laughing his ass off..as he really meant he had a 48 state plan..and a way to steal votes from the largest Vet block in this nation, and active military, and votes from those who are fighting this war, as the headquarters are here where I live..He is stealing votes from parents who gave the greatest sacrifice , their children.
Dean is stealing votes from Senior citizens, and husbands and wives.
He is stealing votes from citizens who have been hit by a very poor economy and housing collapse, and economy that was one of the first in the nation to fall apart.
Hell the only people buying any housing here in Florida is foreigners!
I feel worse for those who have lost their children to this war, they will not have a voice, in this so called democracy, after giving the most to this nation.
I hope everyone in this nation feels shame for what is being done to this country by the Dem party, right here, right now!
I have been angry since 2000 that my vote has been stolen over and over again by the republican party. Now it is the fault of my own party.
A party I have been faithful to my entire life. That has now stolen my most prized right..to vote.
I hold you accountable Dean and Obama!
Oh and Obamabots..save your BS for someone who doesn’t know what really happened here in Florida..you can not bullshit me!
Howard Dean thinks the caucuses went so well. He wants caucuses in every state. Why not — their cheap. Whats the difference if the votes get lost? Nobody seems to care. This was a year when we couldn’t lose. Thanks to Howard Dean, Donna Brazille and Barack Obama we are going to lose it all. Like you if Hillary is not the nominee I will change my registration to Independent. This is not my Democratic Party anymore. I feel sorry for your terrific Democratic Congressmen, but hell we are going to have Unity. As Amanda Power, Obama’s former advisor said Obama laments elections — its so confusing for people to keep voting. However, he has to deal with the people already elected. I am paraphrasing but its close enough. So now we get it Obama doesn’t believe in Democracy and neither it seems does the Chairman of the Democratic Party Howard Dean. James Carville wanted to stage a coup and put in Harold Ford of Tennessee. Unfortunately that went nowhere. I am so disgusted.
Ford Jr. needs to stay back. The Mayor of Memphis recently resigned. The same week one of the major “Pay to play” law firms had one its members plead.
The Fords had just completed a dirty politics trial and court appearance, have delayed thier latest court appearance, prosecutors rarely act without basis and grounds.
It appears to this voter that someone is playing ball with TBI. Big heads are rolling.
This might eventually connect to Barbour(neighboring casino state) over lotto votes, etc. Frist’s back yard also. John Ford’s trial has to do with TennCare, a program the GOP wanted to tear down, despite some pretty effective access for TN citizens to doctors as a result. The private consulters probably have to do with the First BMA portfolio to an extensive degree.
http://www.wmctv.com/global/story.asp?s=7869244
The big money was calling shots, one of the most famous political machines ever, with arteries going back to tobacco road. If they cared to look much closer there may be some Abramoff/Barbour charter flight rendition connections as well.
Frist BMA*
The one “good” thing that came out of Ford Jr.’s unsuccessful run for the U.S. Senate was the election of Steve Cohen to Ford’s former House seat. I gather that you either live in Memphis or keep up with the politics there–my sisters both live in the Memphis area so I get an earful. My brother-in-law has been ecstatic with Steve Cohen since he seems to actually be working for the people of his district instead of constantly rubbing palms with the local power brokers, as was the modus operandi of BOTH Ford Sr. and Ford Jr., although Ford Jr. seemed to have a little more on the ball than his father.
We had caucuses in Colorado this year. It snowed 15 inches that day. I live in a rural area in Southeastern Colorado. No one who lived outside the city limits attended. 13 people showed up. That is how many people selected 7 delegates to the county convention. Eleven of us voted for Hillary and two for Obama, but for some reason he got two delegates.
I know that if there had been primaries a lot more people would have voted. It is hard for old people and shift workers and parents to leave in a blizzard and show up at a specific time. If they have all day, though they can arrange to have someone give them a ride.
It is hard for a rancher with lambs or calves coming to leave in a snowstorm. You cannot go off and leave them unattended. But if you have a primary they can go in shifts. This is important to rural citizens. Caucuses suck.
I’m sure up in Boulder where all of the Obama supporters live, they were able to get to their caucuses, but most of those who live in rural Colorado were shut out.
Good for you. No one has the right to your vote when they spend their time trying keep it from being counted, Democrat OR Republican.
I don’t live in Florida. But Barack Obama does not have the “right” to my vote in November if he manages to worm and cheat and steal his way to the nomination, simply because he has a (D) after his name.
You are one hundred percent right- this whole process has been about keeping the Clintons from getting back into the White House, and it’s been lead by the power brokers in the Democratic Party, not the Republicans.
I don’t know if Obama was the DNC’s favored candidate all along, or he just slipped into place after Iowa. It’s hard for me to believe they ever wanted a true progressive like Edwards. But it’s clear that everything is being set up to deny Hillary the nomination. Use caucuses and open primaries so that you can disenfranchise the elderly and other groups that you know favor Hillary. When that doesn’t get the job done, deny delegates to states where Hillary is strong. And finally, constantly feed the media with negative information about the Clintons.
When all else fails, turn over the decision of which delegates to seat to the Obama campaign. It’s not very subtle, but it works. Oh, and start demanding that Hillary withdraw roughly one-third of the way through the process, and don’t let annoying things like victories by the New York Senator get in the way of these demands.
The only solution is to not vote in NOV or vote for McCain. If the Dems lose and Nancy Pelosi is no longer the Speaker, my Democratic party gets what they deserve. What have they done to earn and deserve our votes? They have been weak and wimpy even as the majority party. The Democratic party is so sure of winning, they will be in shock if they lose and in the future, the party will have to democratize, evaluate and change for the better and not take people for granted. Stay home in NOV!
“and it’s been lead by the power brokers
in the Democratic Party, not the
Republicans.’
Actually, I think it has been led by both.
My husband & I soooooooooo agree with you and have been distraught since what happened to your state and our party in the 2000 coup. Never thought our own party would stoop so low. I replied to an
e-mail from Dean asking for a donation and told him he would not receive a dime from us due to his mis-handling of FL & MI. I smell a big RAT here and you have confirmed it! He hasn’t had the guts to respond to my e-mail. We are long time Dems and my husband has driven people to the poles who had no transportation or were too old, he was a precinct captain and a pole watcher, but not this time. We are, if the choices are McCain & Obama, for the first time in our lives, not voting for either. WE WILL WRITE IN HILLARY and the democratic party will loose big this year. It will loose the 1 vote majority in the Senate and will not hold onto the house.
“Oh and Obamabots..save your BS for someone who doesn’t know what really happened here in Florida..you can not bullshit me!”
Amen brother! From a Hillary supporter in Orlando.
flyarm,
as opposed to giving up on the democrats, why don’t you help to force the posers out?
A strong democratic party minus the corrupt and stupid is worth fighting for…
Simon,
I have tried, and i have worked hard to bring about good change, I helped train and mentored one of the people who fought for the bill to Ban DRE’s and VVPB in Fla.,I live in two states in 2006 In Nj i worked with candidates and townships that had votes flip from one town to another 45 minutes away in the Sequoia machines. I was in thw court day in and day out helping the Lawyer for the candidates that lost elections by 11, 18 and 20 votes respectfully, and yet 75 votes ended up in voting machines 45 minutes away.
I was there, i went to the wearhouse with the candidates and i inspected the insides of the machines, only because i had done the same here in Florida.
I worked with people from the league of Womens voters to the ACLU trying to educate them to what was going on with these machines.
I am illiterate of Computers..but i understand how they cheat with them, and have worked with people who have shown me, because i put myself and my money where my mouth is, when something does not seem right , i will fight and scratch and claw till i find out why it is not right.
But my expertise is in a different direction, I was a lifelong Flight crew for one of the airlines involved on 9/11..that is why i found and mentored people to take over in Fla with the voting issues. I was trying and could not do both issues any longer.
I was the first in my county to bring out the voting machine problem, I was out nightly speaking for 2 years before the election in 2004 at Dem Clubs in Fla and all over the state.
I was told to shut up more times than i could count, about the voting machines by the Florida dem party and the state and national party execs.
I spoke to the Kerry campaign over and over about the problems in Fla with the voting machines..and at the state convention and got eye rolls and was all but called a nut case.
Then those I helped train and teach about the machines were sent home crying many times by the Dem and Dem party execs who ridiculed them, as nuts!!
Then came 2006 and one county Sarasota had 18,000 votes dissapear, was i surprised no..but the State and national Party could no longer ignore the problem.
I was at that time not as active in the voting machine issues, as the person i trained had taken over and was doing incredible things in the state.
Like i said i live in two states, but i always stayed informed to what was going on and i encouraged those doing the on the ground work.
But what is so troubling to me is Howard Dean, he knows what this bill was about, and yet each and every time he speaks about Fla he says , we broke the “rules”..he never ever brings up what the bill was that the rules got broken in..no he refuses to acknowledge that with the Primary date change bill was the bill that made Flrodia the only state in the nation that banned DRE voting machines and mandated VVPB for the 2008 election.
Balloons and bands should have been played for the citizens of Florida by the DNC for what they accomplished, but instead we the people of Florida have been punished , for doing the right thing.
Citizens with no help from the FDP or the national DNC stopped our state from using voting machines that had no credibility and could be and were easily hacked. The citizens ( myself included) used our own money to stop these machines to make sure Florida citizens were not disenfranchised . Citizens worked day and night , with incredible diligence to make our votes count.
We had people who sat in cars all night watching the wearhouses where the machines were kept , trying to maintain the honesty of the authorities that were guarding our votes. I know because i know the moms and dads who sat in cars watching who entered and exited the wearhouses that housed the voting machines..i kept the notes of the cars that came and went late at night and entered the wearhouses.
These were people just like you and me , who cared enough to try to protect all of our votes.Who had cameras and who sat night after night making sure no one was getting at the machines, and when people did, we recorded it.And licence plates.
This was a state wide citizens action to protect our votes.
And what did Howard Dean do..he disenfrachised us all.
I am done , seriously. I never thought i would be where i am today, but i have fought the Dem party to try to get them to fight for our votes, when they wouldn’t , we the people did , and how have we been treated? We have been disenfranchised, and what has the media said or done about it..they have kept the myth of our votes alive..they are the liars along with Howard Dean and Donna Brazile, and Kerry, and Dashle.
They knew what the problems were and are.. nation wide, with these machines, and they have allowed it.They are part and parcel of the problem. They have bullied anyone who gets the steals exposed, they have indocrinated people within the parties in each state to put tin foil on anyone trying to make a difference.
I just wonder many days now..who really is working for us?
I am a democrat, but those who are running my party no longer represent who i am and what my democratic values are.
I was a volunteer for Edwards, i still believe in that man and his wife in every way, they are the democratic party that have the same values i have.
I never thought i would be supporting Hillary, but i am today, as i see very clearly what has been done. And it started the day the bill was signed in Tallahassee to make Florida the first state in the nation to ban DRE voting machines , and mandate VVPB..and Dean right away began pusing Caucus’s on the state of Florida Democratic party. I see it as the day the Fix was in for the 2008 presidential elections, by Dean and company.
And i can no longer fight for a party that has left me and my values. That doesn’t give a rats ass about your vote or mine , as long as they can win their agenda, what ever that is, and by what ever means nessessary.
I will not give them another day of my life.
I will not give them another dime of my money.
They are not worthy of it.
fly
please let me add..there are so many Florida citizens , and so many others nationwide, who have fought to have our votes recorded and count ,most have not done it for just themselves,many of us have done it for the senior citizens of our state, who followed the rules all their lives, they have paid their dues, they raised their kids and paid their bills and taxes, many have fought in uniform for this nation, they deserve to have their votes counted..it is their right, and they have more than earned it.
We have fought for votes for citizens, who have fought and are fighting for this country.Many have lifelong scares, both physical and mental..
They have the right to vote, and have their votes counted.
We fought to get Voter verified paper ballots , so moms and dads who have lost their children in war or in the service of this country can have a voice.
And the soldiers in the the war zones can have a voice, and have it counted. And so their wives and some, their children, can have a voice, and have it counted.
If Howard Dean gave a shit about their voices and their votes, he would have stepped down before running as a surrogate of Obama’s campaign!
..and he would have told the Americian people the truth..about his so called “rules” ruling!
I hold Howard Dean accountable for stealing my vote, and the votes of those citizens of my state , who have the born right to vote, and have had a part of their democracy stolen from them.
now by both parties.
fly
Flyarm: what you write is fascinating and illuminating. I have been following the Florida vote scam since 2000, reading the Black Box voting website.
What is the motivation for Howard Dean and Donna Brazile, and Kerry, and Dashle to be doing this? Is it Clinton Derangement Syndrome? Or what?
I’ve always been registered unaffiliated and was going to change my affiliation to Democrat this year since that’s the way I always vote anyhow, but I will not now. I think it was so wrong for Dean to do this to Florida. He has shown zero leadership to resolve it. At one time I had a very high opinion of him, it’s pretty much at the bottom of the barrell now.
I think your comments should be forwarded to the news media everywhere, they just don’t seem to cover it.
Florida is getting screwed once again.
I applaud all your efforts with the voting machine, paper trail, etc., your a true hero…
The dem party should realize how horrible losses like your leaving the party will be.
Dear Flyarm; As a fellow Floridian I hear you and am behind you 100%. I fully intend diavow the Democratic Party myself, and go Indepdent even if Hillary is the nominee. I have no use for them anymore unless they were to get rid of Howard Dean immediately. But that won’t happen.
About a month ago I started poking around the websites of the Florida Senate and Florida House. I am ashamed to say I am pretty ignorant on politics, but the events of the last 8 years have sparked me to get more involved and to speak up more - plus I am now semi-retired and have more time to research things! In any case I found the notorius CS/HB 0537, and low and behold, even to a lay-person as I am, things just didn’t look right. Why were all these other admendments concerned with the disposal of voting machines and going over to marksense ballots on the same bill as the Primary date change? As well as other issues, such as procedures for fining third party voter registration… Is this practice of attaching several amendments on to one bill commonplace? If, so, no wonder bad laws get passed! I have written Baynews 9, Tampa Tribune and some other papers, and have never heard a peep from anyone. I have all the names of the Representatives who either sponsored or co-sponsored the bill and I am in the process of writing to each and every one of them, also. I did write Howard Dean and told him that I won’t be supporting DNC either. I shared the point that the Primary date change was tagged on with the “paper trail” amendment, and if he was already aware of that fact then his decision to strip Florida of all their delegates was “callous and irresponsible”. This whole election has turned out to be such a sham. The news media is pathetic for the most part, and I just feel like they are the ones pretty much calling how this election will unfold . . .
TO VALERIE, Hi fellow Floridian!!
WE ARE NOT ALONE..and I know some big DNC Fla supporters are demanding their money back from the DNC..and i just found this little piece of info you might find interesting..seems the little college kiddies for Obama and the Dem’s for a day..aren’t putting money into the DNC coffers!
from the new Kos- Exiles web site..
http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/03/24/monday-last-day-to-register-in-pa/
What if you were planning to throw a party and nobody paid? That is dilemma laid out in Money Troubles in Denver at the NYTimes. Howard Dean is having trouble coming up with half of the money for a downpayment. (LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!) Ahem, excuse me for that. Where was I? Oh, yeah, no one could have predicted that anyone would take a large swing state, slam a harsh penalty on it, take another large swing state, slam *it* with another harsh penalty and manage to piss off the voters enough that they want their money back for the convention. It was completely unforseen …..
The comments, although peppered by the occasional cluelessly juvenile Obamaphile, seem to be uncharitable towards poor Howard. I know, I know, you’re heartbroken.
Larry, although I’m a syaunch supporter of Hillary Clinton, because I feell her to be the better-qualified candidate, I must take exception to your statement:
In my own humble opinion — which admittedly is based solely upon my own anectdotal experience in the Hawaii Caucuses last February 19 — Mrs. Clinton’s campaign has done an extraordinarily lousy job at organizing for the state caucuses.
Out here in the islands, they started going off the rails the moment they appointed State Senate President Colleen Hanabusa as their state campaign chair. Well, Sen. Hanabusa pretty much sat on her hands for months on end, completely unresponsive to inquiries from people like myself who wanted to help. When I called the main campaign HQ back east to inform them and complain, they simply referred me back to her. When I called Sen. Hanabusa’s office, I was told in no uncertain terms that she was busy with the legislative session, had no time, and was trusting Hawaii Democrats to do the right thing.
Excuse me for asking, but that’s a campaign strategy?
Further, when Chelsea Clinton was sent out here the weekend before the caucuses to campaign for her mother, she was swept up by Sen. Hanabusa and hustled from photo-op to photo-op with other local elected Democratic officials, usually at swanky local restaurants like Chai’s Island Bistro at Aloha Tower Marketplace in downtown Honolulu. I can vouch for that particular photo-op because, as a local party official, I was invited to that event. No rank-and-file Democrats were in attendance.
In the meantime, I received four phone calls from local Obama campaign organizers during that weekend alone, politely reminding me that the caucus was the following Tuesday night, to please attend, and they even told me exctly where our local precinct was meeting! There was no intimidation, and everyone who attended was very pleasant and cordial to one another.
And to be perfectly honest, as a Clinton supporter I was proud of the Obama campaign, which organized and pulled together a turnout that was nearly 1000% the size of our next biggest presidential turnout, which had occurred only four years earlier. It was exciting to see new faces, many of whom were participating in party politics for the very first time. They didn’t play the part of bullies, and were eminently respectful of Clinton supporters to the point of disarming.
In sharp contrast, with her local campaign headed by a woman who was only interested in listing that post on her political resume when she runs for governor in two years, and who further used it primarily to curry favor with her elected Democratic colleagues, is it really any wonder why Sen. Clinton only took 26% of the islands’ caucus vote?
I don’t think that there was, with individual exceptions of course, anything really nefarious going on at caucuses in this primary season. The Obama campaign simply outhustled the Clinton campaign when it came to organizing for state caucuses, and Mrs. Clinton is now paying a rather heavy price for her campaign’s tawdry neglect.
Aloha.
My profuse apologies to Larry; my comment should have been addressed to Alegre. My bad!
No Obama calls in Arkansas here either in the month of our Primary.
Guess he doesn’t do primaries too well.
Whether or not Hillary’s campaign staff in Hawaii did a poor job or not is not the point. Did the elderly, those who work second shift, the single parents and other that could not get out and stay the time it takes to caucus get a fair shake?
Isn’t voting supposed to be the will of the people, not the will of those who have the time, energy and the funds for a baby-sitter?
Caucuses disenfranchise voters. Period. Being well run or not has nothing to do with it. A well run, or well done caucus is still a caucus IMO and thus unfair and frankly, Un-American and Undemocratic.
Oh, and I should have said that I’ve thought caucuses were a bunch of crap for twenty years not just this year. I’ve thought that the power given to the Iowa Caucuses and New Hampshire was a bunch of crap for twenty years.
I believe we should have ALL closed primaries with a rotating system for which states go first. That would be fair and it would be Democrats that chose our nominees. As it should be.
Well, I’ll just have to respectfully disagree. It’s precisely the point. The system is what it is.
Many states follow the caucus model to determine delegate selection, regardless of how you or I might feel about the real and / or perceived flaws inherent in the concept. Complaining ex post facto about the process’s unfairness to shift workers and the elderly really offers nothing to address the situation as it was presented this year.
The Clinton campaign knew full well the party’s timetable and game plan going into this current primary and caucus season. That they failed to take very seriously the caucuses after Iowa and Nevada was a most foolhardy decision on their part. I take no joy in saying that only time will tell as to whether that benign neglect will ultimately cost Mrs. Clinton the nomination.
Acceptance of status quo is not an excuse.
If it stinks, if it’s inefficient, change it.
It’s also the American way…
(It’s going to be a long day…
Journey to the center of a dick Cheney like mind. Sigh. MIght as well be Mcpeak, they’re so DUMB, untalented and predictable).
“The system is what it is.”
The systen CAN and SHOULD be changed.
I totally agree with KenoshaMarge: “I believe we should have ALL closed primaries with a rotating system for which states go first. That would be fair and it would be Democrats that chose our nominees.”
It is a proven fact that more voters vote in primaries than in caucuses. (Somewhere in my files I have numbers, but don’t have time to look for them now. Sorry.) To my mind primaries are inherently more democratic.
I’m a “Typical White Person” for Hillary, or TWirP for short.
A bit off topic, but go to Media Matters for America and try to call out the Rev. Wright on his racism. You’ll get flamed for being “shrill” and “an Obama hater.” You’ll also see Rev. Wright’s rantings defended as “not racist.” It’s really unbelievable.
To be perfectly honest, I didn’t find Rev. Wright’s remarks to be racist. Obnoxious, yes. Offensive to a lot of people, most certainly. Overly theatrical and campy, without a doubt. But not racist. Oftentimes, the good pastor was merely preaching to his own choir, and was his own best lampoon.
On a more serious note, I finally took the time to watch Rev. Wright’s 9/11 sermon in its entirety. And I have to say, the most controversial portion — the one played over and over again on the cable news networks — was most very clearly taken out of context by a mainstream media that harbored malevolent intent to stir up public discord and anger. They even went so far as to take two separate clauses and edit them together for further shock value. Truly, it was a patently dishonest effort on their part, and I’m ashamed to say that I think we got played here, all the more embarrassing because I was one of those who was also the most indignant.
But don’t just take my word for it; here’s a link: http:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ
Further, the very words Wright used when talking about about America’s past misdeeds catching up with us were actually first used by Edward Peck, a former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq and deputy director of President Reagan’s terrorism task force, when the latter appeared on FOX News the day before the sermon. If you watch it, you’ll hear Wright cite Ambassador Peck in his sermon as a “faith footnote”, which is certainly far more than what our mainstream media bothered to do in this case.
Pardon me, Donald, but Rev. Wright’s church theology believes the “white church” is the Antichrist.
That’s racist, period.
A typical white person here.
*Atypical White Person
Fixed the typo.
If Hillary Clinton can reasonably point to uncounted votes in Michigan and Florida that would give her the popular vote, at least, and it is clear that it is Obama who has blocked the re-votes, then she would be entitled to go her (and our) separate ways in the form of a Workers Party dedicated to blue collar Americans.
In the event of an Obama defeat in November, the Democratic Party is going to come asunder, anyway.
As far as Michigan goes, why not just hire pollsters to call registered Dems, and keep at it until the numbers are invariant?
“I’ve been over at Corrente a lot lately. And saints preserve us I found this:
Many Obama voters ignored other Texas primary races
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/030908dnpoldemvoters.3a5249f.html
Yep, Chris(Bowers) that line of b.s. you been pushin’”
Well, the numbers don’t appear to lie at all.
One person tries to claim this is proof Obama has coattails? The heart of the internal polling comes later in the story.
This story really deserves a front page link.
Mr Murder:
Should email this info to Pelosi and Dean; those …..(fill in as you wish)….
I’m sorry, Mr. Murder, but what is your point about all this?
“Many Obama voters ignored other Texas
primary races”
Yes. True. For many of those crossover voters who did not go down the ticket they may have been a Limbaugh crossover vote. And there were reports forn TX that day that many of them did not know how the primary system works. They believed they could go over to the Dem Primary, vote Hilalry, and then go vote for Repugs in the other elections. And they were pretty mad when they realized they could only vote for Dems on down the line.
So this story does not surprise me a bit.
What we need to do now is start a grass roots run. We cannot win in the Dem party. Clinton needs to be thinking past the Colo. day into the 3rd party day with our backing. We need to let her know and the Dem party leaders know we will muck this thing up by backing her and she will still win. We will take enough votes from Obama and McCain to make this a close enough race that maybe just maybe she can still win it. We need to get it together now.
Never happen.
What a sharp fucking piece. Shit, if all those paid hacks on TV cable and our Dem legislators thought like you, Alegre, we wouldn’t be in this political morass and the laughing stock of the GOP party as they plan their next coup for the fall.
Barack Obama and Co. suck big time cow udders.
HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT!! REAL FUCKING SOLUTIONS, FOR REAL FUCKING AMERICA!
(note to HRC campaign–my full permission to use my amped-up version of your slogan)
alegre, good piece, but lacking somewhat in two key areas you didn’t rightly come out and say!
If this was a 3rd world country, the tactic Obama is using of Democrats for a day would be considered ballot box stuffing, of which UN observers have to go in and monitor the voting, is this what America has lowered itself to be?
Regarding Florida and Michigan, the rules were NO campaigning in these States and advertising on the TV and sending fliers is CAMPAIGNING of which Obama did in both states and knowingly did so, therefore, Obama is deserving of penalties, as Dean says break the rules and pay the consequences, then Dean live up to your word! Obama broke the rules and Democrats demand he be penalized! Otherwise Dean come out rightly and tell the Democratic voters that Obama sets the rules and is the chosen one so true Democrats can make a choice across the nation to change their stance from Democrats to Independants and you can not have to worry about a convention in Denver to pay for, because you already crowned your choice!
America now knows the words of Obama do not hold true anymore about his not being able to campaign and people get to know him and then vote for him, is rubbish! People are getting to know him finally and they are disgusted with what they see!
The proof of true Democrats was said loud and clear on Feb 4th when your chosen candidate had the supposed power backing of Kennedy and Kerry , thus the weight of the supposed Democratic powerhouse of Mass behind him and the voters rejected Obama with a resounding vote!
The Democratic Party is suppose to be the party of Democracy, yet the proven power hungry leadership of the Democratic party shows another tale and your rejection of American voices shows your affinity for power and dictatorship! Count the already cast ballots in Florida and Michigan, Obama broke the rules in both States as did the States, but the people didn’t, so the fact that the Democratic Party is suppose to be about the people, the people have spoken, seat the delegates as they have chosen!
Larry, like you, I’ve run the numbers–that’s my profession! The real kicker to me is that so many Obama-bots actually believe that if Obama is the Democratic nominee, he will be competitive in solidly Republican states like Mississippi, South Carolina, Wyoming, etc. I do not know about Wyoming, but I KNOW about Mississippi and South Carolina because I have relatives in BOTH states. My relatives in South Carolina were like me–supported Edwards and shifted to Clinton. And like me, they said that Edwards was probably the only Democrat that might have taken the state in the general election–i.e., NO DEMOCRAT is likely to take South Carolina in the general election, except perhaps a “son of South Carolina”. All my family in Mississippi have been Republicans since Goldwater (and yeah, it was integration that did it, wrongheaded as that may be). After Bush was appointed by the SCOTUS in 2000, I complained so much about Bush that this part of my family quit speaking to me for 2 years. ALL of them voted for Bush in BOTH 2000 and 2004, but after Katrina in 2005, these staunch Republicans actually started criticizing Bush and started speaking to me again! My aunt, who had repeatedly bashed the Clintons as “the most corrupt family to have ever occupied the White House” admitted to me that of the candidates left, the ONLY person that she felt comfortable with was Hillary! She detests McCain, but she tells me that there is NO WAY that she can vote for Obama–Michelle’s comment about this being the “first time” that she was “proud” of her country and that business with Barack Obama failing to put his hand over his heart during the national anthem were her reasons she cited. The Reverend Wright flack only further entrenche