FlipFlopFlipFlop: Obama on Troop Surge! [Updated]
By NancyA on September 6, 2008 at 8:45 AM in Arugula (Elitism), Barack Obama, Current Affairs, Flip Flopping, Foreign Policy, Fox News, Iraq, Obama
[UPDATE FROM LARRY JOHNSON--Great Piece by Nancy. I've inserted the clip of what Barack told O'Reilly. Barack has a problem. He now insists no one envisioned the surge success. Nope. Wrong. McCain staked that position out early on and reaps the benefit.]
Obama flipped on the troop surge again or is it again? Can we count the flips, I’ve lost count? I will tell you this, we decorated flip flops on the way to Denver, writing all of Obama’s flips on them, we ran out of room! Sorry no more flip flops to spare! I have no idea how many times he flipped but here goes in his own words,
Earlier Thursday, in taping a segment for Fox’s “O’Reilly Factor,” Obama said the surge of U.S. troops has “succeeded beyond our wildest dreams.”
But back in July, Fox News reported that Obama downplayed the troop surge. Here is what Obama said on the troop surge (in my opinion he is dissing the troops and their commanders.) back when? July….2007, 2008
…he (Obama) credits the surge with helping to reduce violence in Iraq it “doesn’t meet our long-term strategic goal.” (What is the long term goal Obama?)
Asked about that comment, Obama said in his latest interview with CBS News that “there’s no doubt” spending billions a month in Iraq and sending extra troops will “have an impact.”
“But it doesn’t meet our long-term strategic goal, which is to make the American people safer over the long term,” he said, repeating his argument that the resources spent in Iraq are detracting from U.S. efforts in Afghanistan.
And then Obama said this….
…”the argument was and continues to be: When are we going to turn over responsibility to the Iraqis for their own country? When are they going to resolve their political differences?”
That will happen when he (When who is president, McCain?) is president, Obama said, “because we are going to withdraw our troops” and, while giving Iraqis support, “we are going to bring this war to a close.” (Does that mean we are going to win the “war” or cut and run like we have done so many times before?)
You’re killing me Obama…..I am laughing so hard my ribs are killing me! We have already turned over 11 regions, the latest Anbar!
Here’s the exchange with O’Reilly:
Doesn’t Obama read the papers? (Ahem! the sound bite I saw of the O’Reilly interview didn’t mention this change!) It was recently reported that the Anbar Region in Iraq has been turned over to the Iraqis….yes you heard me right….Anbar Region is now under control of the Iraqis. Here is more news from The Christian Science Monitor on that milestone for the region.
The US military handed over control of Anbar Province Monday, marking a significant milestone in the Iraq war.
Anbar was the deadliest Iraqi province for US troops, with nearly 1 in every 3 Americans killed there. It was once the symbol of Sunni resistance, the base of operations for Al Qaeda, and home to two major US military offensives and the most intense urban combat of the war.
But in the past two years, Anbar has emerged as the symbol of a turnaround as Sunni sheikhs formed “Awakening Councils,” ousted Al Qaeda, and created community police forces.
Anbar is the 11th of Iraq’s 18 provinces to return to Iraqi control, but it is the first predominately Sunni province handed over.
Where in the hell has Obama been? I know campaigning….the same excuse he used for not holding one hearing on Afghanistan!
Wake up and smell the coffee…stop eating the arugula and actually read the papers on the table next to you when you ride in that big plane of yours! You might just learn a thing or two!
Oh! Yeah right! I forgot you told that guy in Britain that you will need time off as president so you can think! And so far that has escaped…..you!
That is not the surge i knew…
a. hillary
b. mccain
america first!
Obama: the Hip Hop, Flip Flopper…
Senator Inhofe thinks another Obama flip flop, that of the flag pin, is going to help contribute to Obama’s impending loss in November:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=13&articleID=20080906_11_A1_STPAUL227187
“Do you really want to have a guy as commander in chief of this country when you can question whether or not he really loves his country?” he asked.
“That’s the big question.”
It is a very real and legitimate question, and the recent revelation of Obama’s close ties with yet another radical figure, Khalid al-Mansour…
http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/obama_sutton_saudi/2008/09/03/127490.html
…is only going to stoke the flames of doubt among many that he is, in fact, The Manchurian Candidate.
More about Khalid al-Mansour:
http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/khalid_al_mansour/2008/09/04/127844.html
‘His life story could have been written as a Horatio Alger-style rise from rags to riches. He sees himself as something of the “return of Antar,” a mythical black poet-warrior of pre-Islamic times. His real-life exploits range from a surprise one-on-one meeting with the prime minister of India as a college student to mentoring Black Panthers’ founders Huey Newton and Bobby Seale in the early 1960s.’
As we approach this crucial election, figures such as al-Mansour, Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright, Frank Marshall Davis and many more absolutely MUST receive the focus they deserve. Obama will balk at such vetting, but we cannot be deterred. This is not an application for dog catcher, it is about who is in charge of defending our nation from the kinds of terrorists that Rev Wright all but celebrated 5 days after 9/11.
This is about whose hand is on ‘The Button.’
I don’t care what anyone says or who feels that it is time for a ’symbol’ president, this man scares the heck out of me and I do not want him, in any way, as my Commander in Chief. I do not trust him to protect me, my family or this country.
NObama.
Please contact Sen. Inhofe and tell him you support his giving voice to questions which numerous Americans feel but may be reluctant to voice:
http://www.inhofe.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.ContactForm
Sending Sen. Inhofe as case of troll repellent. He will need it since he will be getting a salvo of hate male from koolaid drunk trolls for speaking the truth.
Amen, great work!
Thanks, Fuck You Barack Obama!
Khalid al-Mansour is just freaky. He’s a feeble minded nitwit.
touché
Just to be clear: to be Pro-Hillary and determined NOT to vote for Obama (as I am,) is it required that I do all of the following?:)
1. Embrace the surge?
2. Constantly refer to liberals as “Marxists?”
3. Call Ted Kennedy a murderer?
4. Work for the defeat of John Kerry and other Democrats?
5. Contribute to and vote for the McCain-Palin campaign?
6. Endorse drilling in the ANWAR, off the coasts of Florida and California, and everywhere else?
7. Embrace the “pro-life” philosophy?
8. Refer to global warming as a left-wing Marxist Myth?
In other words, because Hillary was denied (I believe, fraudulently) the nomination, does that mean I’m supposed to become a fundamentalist right-winger with a brand new set of beliefs and principles now?
Just asking.
Independent thinkers generally do what they think to be right regardless of what others may think. As for myself I voted for Hillary, but she seems to have compromised her own principles. While campaigning she said all Obama would bring to the white house was a speech. But now she has chosen to endorse and campaign for Obama. Hypocracey is not a new set of principles but rather no principles at all. That is the hope and change the democratic party is now projecting.
Hillary is a politician and if she wants party support in the future then she has to back the party candidate now. She does not have any choice in the matter. Stop criticizing her. She has enough troubles.
A lot of the talk lately critical of Hillary is legitimate but a lot is also troll spew. As usual the trolls will overplay their hand. The whitey tape being a prime example. The actual Hillary supporters are venting because they are rightfully upset.
Watch who you call a hypocrite.
Please don’t! Even those of us who consider ourselves Republicans don’t like the fundamentalist right-wingers. They did to our party 8 years ago what the Obama thugs are doing to the Dems this year–took over and threw reason and moderation out the window.
The Religious Right hasn’t been in control of anything for a while. It’s been a action-filled decade so I could be wrong.. so if I am let me know how.
I think that depends upon where you are. Tom DeLay used to be my congressman. The religious right took over early in that area and still has more sway there than in most places. Many of those die hards still think DeLay was a good guy….
DUMB………..
Both parties need to clean house. Hopefully this election will begin that process.
The extremist right wingers are out of power. Now we have extremist left wingers trying to gain power. Both extremes suck and need to be stopped. At our heart America craves the middle and common sense solutions. Not a bunch of rabid crazy power hungry assholes.
ok i can see that.
I had DeLay in the “Incumbancy Betrayer” bucket.
not to say he couldn’t be both.
I look back and shake my head at how stupid the Republicans were.
And now we got Pelosi ugh
I have two ideas to reform govt.
1 - Require all Congressional districts to be as square as possible
2 - Repeal the XVII amendment ,and put the States back in control of the Senate.
Mamatx,
I agree, and I saw what happened with the Republicans, and see it with the Democrats now, no longer one of the party, myself; Many know this.
There isn’t need for division for the voters who are voting for our country as a whole, and know we see through what is happening to the democratic party. I don’t serve the politician, they are suppose to serve us, we are the employers, and I will gladly join ranks with others who feel the same way, regardless of party affiliation. We need to stand up for ourselves, we aren’t children and we also need to think for ourselves, especially when a party changes the definition of what it is.
Sen. MBNA Biden’s real estate deals! Yikes!
ABC News does good reporting - online - but rarely reveals anything negative about Obama on TV.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/questions-about.html?cid=129388828#comment-129388828
Also Biden pushed the 2005 Bankruptcy bill that benefitted MBNA and other credit card companies!
AND Obama voted against capping credit card interest rates! he didn’t care how high they were.
Hmm….did the Establishment also promise the VP to Biden?
I think it means working with your congressman/woman, and state senator to move in the direction you like. The way you think and what you say to others should be your own very particular way. That is what representative government and freedom is all about.
They don’t listen.
I asked them to get the Detoit Mayor out, they kept silent. I asked them to drill, they told me to inflate my tires. I wanted my vote to count but they moved up my primary. I voted for Hillary but they gave it to Bambi.
They listen to reason and they listen to the cumulative voice. You add your voice to other voices and you come up with the right reasons. Usually they write down a good reason and they think about it.
Like after 6 months of silence, when the mayor was about to be sent to jail, Obama told him it was time to go. Not before. Nor did any of our other politicians. You know, the ones that moved up the primaries.
The only time they listen is when they think they will be voted out of office and have to get real jobs. Solely self-interest.
I want to vote for someone in my state who has guts to stand up for something that may not be popular, but who will convince me they are right. Someone with the courage of their convictions who has something in the pit of their stomach telling them what is right and what is wrong. I have no politicians in my state like that but I hope that this year we will start a new trend. Reform. Get the bums out from both parties.
How Kilpatrick’s fall hurts Obama -
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157274
btw - I don’t understand why Kilpatrick blames the governor of MI for his fall.
Thanks for posting that Newsweek article. I had stopped reading it for several months now.
Kilpatrick blames the governor for his problems as an explanation for those who choose to believe racism is the reason for his downfall. He won’t take responsibility for what he has done and cries racism as an excuse. This is such a familiar tactic to those of us who read NQ regularly.
Uh - because she’s a WOMAN?
My Congressman (D-IL-3) is a slave of Nancy Pelosi.
He’s another member of the Democratic Machine. His father was congressman forever, and then one year, he ran for reelection, and then won.. but decided to retire before the session started, and the Party selected his son to replace him.. they do this all time. Obama’s political mentor, Emil Jones has just done so with his Senate seat.
Cook County President Todd Stroger did the same thing.. and then when his son ran for reelection. barely won, and the day after the election announced he had prostate cancer.
If people wren’t so tied down to work and family they would burn the govt down here.
Good old Emil Jones also put Obama’s name on a bunch of bills Obama had never seen.
John, I can only share with you my perspective. I loved the Democratic Party. At one time it stood for everything I believed in and fought for. I no longer recognize it. It is not my party. A do nothing Congress sitting by while America suffers. Squandering their majority with spin and misleading rhetoric. Selecting and promoting a false prophet as our nominee.
I want to re-build the Democratic Party. Set it back on a firm foundation. Restore it. The first step of rehabilitation is demolition. I am not afraid to tear down the parts that are condemned and unfit.
I could say the same thing about the Republicans.
That saying that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely is SO true!
Nice to see a Republican and a Democrat keeping those lines of communication open - and friendly.
Rebuilding–looks like the GOP is light years ahead of the Dems.
John,
Bill Clinton said:
This is not about absolutes and conforming. This is about doing what is right for our country and to bring democracy back to our party. I will not condone the corruption that has been inspired by the idea of Obama.
I believe in the right to choose.
I believe in individual liberties as long as they are not hurting the common good.
I believe in transparency in government.
I believe that politicians that stop working for the people and serve their own petty self interests should not be working for the people.
I believe that Obama does not walk his talk, his past actions confirm that he is not a man of his word. He has no firm convictions and he was willing to win under dubious means… How can he stand infront of us and credibly say he is anti-corruption?
I will not vote for him, and I will be sure to support any cause to clean up Washington.
Obama said he would fire anyone in his campaign that attacked Palin’s family.
What about for attacking Palin’s parenting?
Obama Campaign National Finance Committee Member Criticizes Palin’s Parenting
September 05, 2008 9:27 PM
On the Laura Ingraham Radio show, Friday, attorney Howard Gutman — an original member of the national finance committee for Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill. — very directly criticized the parenting of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/obama-campaign.html
That’s the key issue. That’s now the key issue of this entire campaign.
“In other words, because Hillary was denied (I believe, fraudulently) the nomination, does that mean I’m supposed to become a fundamentalist right-winger with a brand new set of beliefs and principles now?”
Seems so.
Makes me reassess things, personally. I guess a lot of neocons have a lot invested in dissatisfied Hillary supporters swinging to their side.
Not likely. (Considering Hillary’s positions and theirs are diametrically opposed.)
At least not for this former Hillary supporter.
This site has become totally useless. And I also question that Larry is still Larry.
Go to Talk Left if you don’t like it here. Quite a range of voices.
Who are you Kate?
This site is not moderated as much as others, and yes, we have republicans commenting here. Many are up front about who they are, some are not.
Your accusations are very troll worthy.
Polarity in thinking serves no one. We are all Americans, and I know many decent people that, gasp, happen to be republicans. Guess what, they were Hillary supporters too.
Did you know that just because someone has an R by their name they are not automatically fundamentalist Christians and pro-life?
I am not going to be swayed by arguments such as yours.
Thanks for defending us infidels. (Conservative ex-Republican)
I agree with you 100%, Leisa.
Thanks Leisa,
Why does the ultra left think that just because I believe something is right for me (religion, not choosing an abortion) that I am going to push it on them? Yes, the ultra right wing of the party is that way, but the ultra left pushes their ideology on all also.
Most Dems and most Repubs are closer to the middle. I may support smaller government (and that for me means not in my bedroom!) and you might support more government programs, but other than that, what is so frightening about “the other side”????
Rudy Giuliani, Mayor Bloomberg, Olympia Snowe,Arlen Specter, just a few Republicans who don’t fit that profile. I don’t even know where I fit in that spectrum, but I was this close to registering as an Indy cause I was sick of both parties.
But I stayed Republican, just because it teed off some of my way leftie friends.
Well Kate what about”liberals” that attacked Sarah Palin for not being a stay-at-home mom?
How about the ones that attacked her infant son as not hers and implied he was a product of incest?
How about so-called pro-choice liberals sneering at Plain’s daughter’s choice to keep her child?
How about the implication, spread by so-called liberals, that Sarah Palin must have had an affair w/her hubby’s business partner because he wanted his divorce records sealed?
Those types of attacks are as vicious and nasty as anything the RW dishes out. Except this time they came from the so-called left.
“Palin’s daughter”.
So?
Sounds like things Republicans said about Hillary for years and years.
Your point being?
Yes, media and society are sexist. That is correct.
But you don’t correct sexism by voting for someone, woman or man, who holds sexist positions (anti-choice, against sex education, against equal pay).
“so.”
That right there pretty much sums it all up, people.
“so.”
“So” let obama defend himself and get exposed for who he is.
“So” who cares if democrats morph into republicans before our very eyes, just for a power grab.
“So” who cares if democrats have lost all moral authority in their transformation.
“So” I’m a HIllary supporter voting for McCain/Palin.
Yes and you don’t correct sexism by voting for someone, woman or man, who spreads and keeps the sexism while running his campaign like Obama has done. This is essentially undemocratic.
Then don’t come here. But you’re right: Larry is no longer Larry. Now he’s Larry instead.
Absolutely not. Some folks’ enthusiasm for sticking it to Obama has bubbled over. I have to say I share that enthusiasm to a large degree: anyone BUT Obama is my view. One thing that has happened is that the dirty politics and misogynism of the Democratic party have forced some of us to re-evaluate our allegiances. Do we want a pro-choice president who appears to dismiss and revile women? Or a pro-life president who appears to respect women? These are not easy choices and we’re all just trying to find our way.
Some people are held hostage to a PARTY. I watched Geraldine Ferrer, after being branded by Obama as a racist, slowly fall back to her PARTY. How cowardly & gutless to be owned in such a way. Thanks to men like John McCain who does what he believes in regardless of how his party or any other party feels. Get to know yourself & most of all get some backbone. You’ll never find a PARTY or nominee who shares all your beliefs so you need the guts to think for yourself & vote for the person YOU can TRUST. You must decide which is more important, voting for a man who can run the country & keep you safe or a man who is friends with terrorist & thugs.
As I read your words, I realized that for a career politician, PARTY must be a lot like family, workplace, and community. All rolled into one. Imagine being banished from every group you belong to?
Observer - That’s totally unfair. Ferraro had the guts to speak out which very few did. In what way is she cowardly and gutless? It takes a lot more courage to stay than to pick up your marbles and push off.
Did it occur to you that she stays in the Dems because she believes in what the party is supposed to be and intends to keep on trying to move it back? (Like Hillary?).It would do absolutely no good if people deserted permanently. That way we would end up with one major party and where would that get us? As the Lib Dems in UK can tell you it is extremely difficult to create a new party and become strong enough to influence let alone win elections.
Ferraro is still another pol I wouldn’t trust as far as I could throw her (like the rest). But she has some intestinal fortitude for saying the unpopular when she could have just kept quiet. And I for one give her a gold star for that.
Clean out the corruption first. You have to clean out the corruption to restore the discussion. Remember when Bill said it would be cool if people could just discuss the issues? Remember who intentionally got in the way? That’s the first step. After that you can discuss issues again. It puts everybody back by four years but no one in their wildest dreams saw what Obama was going to do to corrupt politics.
No one is asking you to give up what you believe. Having your opinion in the mix is vital to having a balanced government.
The troop surge was necessary to bring about a situation in which we can draw down our troops in a manner safe for us and the Iraqis. That is simply responsible troop management.
I want you to support a good dem congress. We need to get rid of corruption is both parties.
McCain/Palin will help get us there. I want the “old progressive DNC” back not the extreemist no clear adgenda just not them party.
It is time that We the American People take back the dialog.
Hear hear.
No.
You know not every Democrat (or Republican for that matter) believe in every thing someone else in their party stands for. This week after weeks of looking at all the issues together I realized I am more Republican then Democrat. Country First!
John asks: “In other words, because Hillary was denied (I believe, fraudulently) the nomination, does that mean I’m supposed to become a fundamentalist right-winger with a brand new set of beliefs and principles now?”
I hope not. I know I’m not planning to change my moderate and liberal views to keep Senator Obama out of the White House.
I still think it was absolutely wrong to invade Iraq and believed it was mistake at the time of the invasion. I have always thought once we were in, we couldn’t leave until Iraq had a stable government that couldn’t be taken over by extremists. There was a stable government (not a nice one, but the country wasn’t led by Muslim extremists) before we invaded and we have to leave a better government than we found when we pull out most of our troops. Regardless of who is president, we are going to establish permanent military bases in Iraq like we have in Japan, Germany, Italy, Cuba, etc.. and anyone who thinks we aren’t, is in fairy tale land. The quicker we establish a stable nation, the better it will be for us and the surge appears to be the only way to do it. I reluctantly support the surge, because it’s long past time of correcting our mistake of invading Iraq by establishing a secure and stable government and ending our occupation.
I’m tired of hearing liberals are Marxists too. Most liberals more than likely read Karl Marx in college. If you take enough Poli. Sci and Sociology classes, sooner or later you end up reading him, along with Lenin and Mao. Big deal. College is about expanding your horizons, learning about different ideologies. Senator Obama may have been weaned on Marx, but in a technological age and global economy, it’s a mute point. Marxism is now a quaint ideology that is as likely to make a comeback as the Conestoga wagon for cross country moving.
I don’t understand why Ted Kennedy is supporting Senator Obama. My guess is he finds him to be an earnest politican and believes it’s time to reshape the Democratic party. I find Senator Obama to be earnest too, but I also think he’s very naive and hasn’t worked hard enough to understand his ideas need buffering, that we live in the real world, not the utopia Obama wants us to be. I disagree with Senator Kennedy that Senator Obama is ready for the Office of President. I see no reason to attack Senator Kennedy because I disagree with him and think he has taken a misstep, he has a career in the Senate that I respect.
I tend to think the DNC has given Senator Kerry a lobotomy. Maybe I didn’t listen well enough to him four years ago, but the senator today is not the one I remember. He’s not my senator so I’ll leave it up to the voters of Massachusetts to decide if it’s time for him to retire. As for other Democrats, I could do without Nancy Pelosi. In my own state, I’m not going to vote Carl Levin out of office. I’m iffy about Bart Stupak, but I’ve had issues with him for quite a while which have nothing to do with his support of Senator Obama. It’s up in the air for me right now as to whether I’ll vote for him. Anyway, I’m not going to jump on any bandwagon to knock every Democrat out of Congress.
My intention is to vote Senator McCain. Between the two candidates we’ve been given, I think Senator McCain will do less harm. I live in a swing state, voting third party, writing in Hillary Clinton or abstaining is a vote for Senator Obama. I have to do what I can to make sure in a close race in this state that the electoral votes don’t go to Senator Obama, that means putting aside my political orientation and voting for Senator McCain in this election.
So far, I haven’t gotten on the Governor Palin bandwagon. I’m pleased there is a woman on a party ticket, I’m happy she has people flocking to McCain’s rallies and I don’t care about how she plans to juggle her career and her family. That’s her concern, not mine. Her children and their issues are none of my concern. I am leery about her career as a mayor and governor, I don’t believe she’s the paragon of wonderfulness we’re being led to believe. I don’t think she’s ready to be president, but since she’s in the vice president slot, it’s not an issue for me. I disagree with her on just about every issue and would have a problem with supporting her for president, she’s too far to the right. The reservations I have concerning Governor Palin won’t prevent me from voting for Senator McCain.
I’m against drilling in ANWR. I don’t see myself changing that view. Opening new territory for offshore drilling isn’t sitting well with me either. We have million of acres set aside for drilling that aren’t being utilized and I think those acres need to be exhausted first or taken off the drilling reserve land first. If the majority of Americans want to drill, it doesn’t matter who is president, drilling there will be.
Voting for McCain will not have me changing my position on pro-choice. Nor will I be scared into voting for Obama by threats that McCain will ban abortion. I don’t see McCain having a social agenda for the next four years. Maybe he’s hoodwinking me, but I think he plans to concentrate on the economy, energy, international relations and national security. Same sex marriage, abortion, health insurance, etc…, just don’t appear to be on his agenda. I think it’s up to states and churches to decide if they want to marry same sex couples. It would be nice if the Federal government would support the decisions of states and churches who decide they want to marry people of the same sex, but you can’t have everything. As for health insurance, I don’t think Obama’s plan for national coverage is going to work any better than no national coverage.
While I’m confused about Governor Palin’s stance on Global Warming (I think her opinion is based on what brings the most money to Alaska), McCain appears to have a good grasp on it and doesn’t believe it’s a Marxist myth.
So no, voting against Senator Obama in this election and pushing a chad for Senator McCain, isn’t going to change my political views and turn me into a right wing fundamentalist, sporting Moral Majority buttons from the 1980’s on my clothes. I’m going to hold strong to my political beliefs and keep a watchful eye on Governor Palin. I just hope her celeb of the day light doesn’t burn out before November. After that, hopefully it dims before 2012. As for Senator McCain, what we see and hear from him is what I think we’ll get in the White House. I doubt there will be any surprises and his career in Congress indicates he tends to be more moderate than conservative. I can settle with that for four years and keep my fingers crossed that Senator Clinton runs again in 2012.
My intention is to vote Senator McCain. Between the two candidates we’ve been given, I think Senator McCain will do less harm. I live in a swing state, voting third party, writing in Hillary Clinton or abstaining is a vote for Senator Obama. I have to do what I can to make sure in a close race in this state that the electoral votes don’t go to Senator Obama, that means putting aside my political orientation and voting for Senator McCain in this election.
If your swing state is slightly leaning towards Obama, then voting third party is ALWAYS an option. If your swing state is slightly leaning towards McCain, then voting third party is ALWAYS an option.
The fact that many people choose to ignore about third-party voting is that such votes work against the party that would normally get your vote, not against the party that you normally wouldn’t.
Wallace attracted very few Republicans to his cause in 1968 even though he was really more conservative than Nixon, but he peeled off enough Democrats (especially in the South) that the Democrats lost the White House.
In 1992, Perot may have attracted some Democrats from Clinton, but took far more Republicans from Bush (as well as attracted many people who were previously apathetic towards politics).
And, of course, in 2000, Nader and Buchanan caused many races to be much closer than they should have been and Nader cost Gore far more votes than Buchanan did Bush. Granted, in most cases neither Bush nor Gore would have gained (or lost) any states from the Nader/Buchanan factor, but the Gore and Bush wins would have not been nearly as close. The Gore margin of victory in Wisconsin, Oregon and Ohio was less than 10000 votes each; in Wisconsin more than 100,000 people voted for Nader or Buchanan, in Oregon over 84000 people did so, and in Ohio almost 145,000 people did (in Oregon, Nader led Buchanan by 10 to 1; in Wisconsin, it was almost 8 to 1; in Ohio, it was roughly 5 to 1).
If you TRULY dislike the candidates of the “Big Two”, vote for a third-party (or write in a candidate’s name). Voting for a candidate you dislike less than the other candidate does nothing. A good number of Democrats felt that way in 2004, and we were rewarded with Barack Obama’s nomination this year. The whole electoral process needs to be changed to give the primary candidates a fair chance to be heard by ALL the voters, not just the lucky ones who get to vote in January. Don’t forget that among the Dems, only Hillary and Obama were still officially in the running on February 1st. Out of 8 candidates on January 1st, we were down to just two, one month later–after just FOUR states had their official say. (Granted most of the other candiddates’ names generally stayed on the ballots in the other 46 states and DC plus the territories, but it was really down to just two “real” candidates. The others were seen as having no chance.)
If the parties would just tell Iowa and New Hampshire to get over themselves, the process would go much more easily. Rotate the primaries by region, allow some of the electoral-rich states to vote earlier (make the smaller states the real battlegrounds by forcing candidates who have “big-state appeal” work harder in the smaller states–the winner in California might not appeal to the voters in Iowa or Mississippi while a 2nd or even 3rd place candidate could sweep those states). If Iowa insists on holding its caucuses first but doing so would violate the DNC/RNC rules, punish the state according to the stated rules. (I would advocate an end to the whole caucus system except for the geographically and population-wise small states; of course, most of those states hold primaries.)
“If your swing state is slightly leaning towards Obama, then voting third party is ALWAYS an option. If your swing state is slightly leaning towards McCain, then voting third party is ALWAYS an option.”
Not as far as I’m concerned, it is not an option. I want my vote to count and what I want it to count as in this election is a vote against the fraud within the DNC. Sure, I can vote third party, abstain, write in Senator Clinton in protest. Guess what, no one will care, no party is going to take notice and make changes. However, if McCain wins the White House when everything points that a Republican shouldn’t be able to win this election even if there isn’t an opponent, both parties will take notice.
My state swung towards Kerry in the last election by 85k. My vote will count this November. I’m not going to give it to a third party, I’m going to do my best to swing the state Republican. I don’t think in this election I have the luxury of a protest vote. If Senator Obama wins the electoral votes in my state but only does so by 5k, both parties will notice. You’re right, they’ll notice if the defecting Democrats vote third party, but they won’t give it as much significance as that 80k voting Republican will. They know they’ll probably pull those third party votes back in the next election, but they can’t be as sure when Democrats go Republican or Republicans go Democrat.
You own your vote. I own mine. For the first time in my voting history, I will not vote for any Democrat in this election. But, hey that’s just me. Do as you wish. No hard feelings. I got over it.
“because Hillary was denied (I believe, fraudulently) the nomination, does that mean I’m supposed to become a fundamentalist right-winger with a brand new set of beliefs and principles now? Just asking.”
There’s no such thing as a stupid question. The answer is no, to all of the above. And to be an Obama supporter, one did not have to:
1. call Hillary ‘really a Republican’
2. call the Clintons racist
3. ignore the lessons of ‘Animal Farm’
4. believe John Edwards’ bullshit apology for his Iraq War Vote
5. ignore John Edwards’ two-faced war-mongering at the Israeli Security Conference
6. attack Hillary like she was Karl Rove
7. make excuses for Obama’s flip-flop on FISA, etc.
8. make fun of McCain’s suffering as a POW, the reason he opposes torture
9. pretend Kerry never asked McCain to be his V.P., and Kennedy never asked McCain to switch parties, and McCain never bucked the ultra-right on immigration, and McCain never worked with Russ Feingold on campaign finance reform
10. try to scare Americans that we might end up with a woman President if McCain is elected.
Just to be clear: Yes
The republicans always said “the reason we are fighting in Iraq is so we don’t have to fight them here”, which was a crock. But now if the dems have their way and Obama should win the general election I think we may very well be fighting “THEM” here.
You got it. That is the ultimate goal.
Another rumor debunked — Andrew “I don’t like women very much” Sullivan’s advancement of the rumor that because Todd Palin’s business partner wanted to have his divorce papers sealed, it might mean Palin was involved in something untoward.
Sorry for the description, but that’s how ludicrous the rumor mill has been
Here’s the debunking link: http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/05/another-palin-smear-bites-the-dust/
My dad served his country in WWII, earning a Purple Heart from the physical injuries sustained there. Perhaps the deeper wounds he suffered were carried within his heart. Today as his Alzheimer’s Disease advances, we are just now reliving with him the deep pain he felt while serving his country as his platoon buddies died in his arms. He hid the stories my entire life, but now I know more about the ugliness of war as he recalls those memories as if they happened just yesterday. No one likes war, but sometimes there is no other way but to stand up and fight. At least when my dad returned home, he returned to a grateful country who treated him and his service with the honor he so much deserved.
I guess I’m old because I remember the tumultuous 60’s. I remember the hippy generation and the anti-war movement. I remember my mother crying at the kitchen table for not only my brother, who was in Vietnam, but those POW’s. I thought those who were serving were heroes and thought that everyone did–my mother surely instilled that in me. I remember my brother sending us letters and how often we read them until he could come home. Then one day my brother was to come home on leave and we all packed into the car to greet him at the airport. I was so proud that I had a brother who believed in his country and who was willing to shed his blood and never had any doubt that others felt the same way. Until—my brother walked through those gates and I witnessed what happened as my brother, wearing his uniform, arrived home from that commercial flight. Yes, he was spat upon. I will never forget that moment, when my sheer happiness quickly turned to fear and anger as the hatred of my brothers generation fell on him before my very eyes. No one can tell me what did and did not happen and I am shocked at the mere denial.
When John McCain delivered his acceptance speech Thursday, I recollected a time in my life when integrity and service were more than just words. The men and women who are willing to serve their country deserve our respect, our pride, our unflinching defense and our unwaivering support while they remain in harms way and to return home in honor. Thank God John McCain stood by the surge that won them their military victory.
Thank you for your story. I had many friends from high schoolcollege who went to Nam. Many never came back. My brother in law served in the Marines there. He almost never talks about it even today. He did journey to Viet Nam about 5 years ago and it seemed to help him heal a bit.
The idea that our young men and women could voluntarily sacrifice themselves for our country and then be mistreated by “peace activists” enrages me. It has not happened as often as it did during Viet Nam, but some of our Iraq and Afghanistan vets have also been disrespected by war protesters. That should NEVER happen!
I had a lot of friends who never made it back from that country . As a matter of fact almost an entire company of Marines.
So many of us. Thank you all for not mocking this story and for your input.
It almost seems right fitting that a Vietnam war hero should defeat the likes of a William Ayers hugging big-talker like Obama.
I will feel much better once I vote for a vietnam vet and a woman this year.
My sentiments also. I keep saying I will vote for the man who actually fought the communists but certainly not for the man who chose to befriend the communists.
I think too how hard both McCain and Cindy McCain have worked and given so much to their country. Cindy has been on so many medical missions and saved so many children and adults all over the world that she deserves to be first lady. What has Michelle ever done? Nada.
John McCain embodies what our country once stood for - honor, integrity, and service to a cause greater than self. When we elect him, it will be the last time our nation will have a President who is a direct link to the Greatest Generation and who comes from a proud military tradition. No chicken hawk, he.
And I like his mom a lot.
I read in Vogue that when Roberta McCain and her sister went to Europe, they were denied a rent-a-car due to their age…so they just bought one instead! And proceeded to tour around Europe on their own.
It was not a good time. Sad too that politicians in Washington were using the war for political gain and tying the hands of our military leaders (deciding from their desks in DC what the rules of engagement should be) and IMHO that is what led to our defeat.
I do not mean to belittle the loss of life in our current wars (all lives are precious and all service is to be honored), however, the younger generation does not seem to know that at the height of the Viet Nam war, US casualties were horrible. If memory serves, I think during the worst times we lost about 1,000 young soldiers per week! (Please correct if I am misstating)